Heavy arrows and speed

[Wheels2]

There is a reason the 125 grain head was the standard for so many, many years.

[Wheels2]

The heavy FOC came about with carbons.
In order to get a heavier arrow shaft, a heavier spine arrow was needed.  Then the tip had to be even heavier in order to get the over spined, but now heavier shaft, to fly well.
For me, I can run a 445 grain Easton Aftermath (.400 w/125 tip) or the tried and true XX75 2117 at 530 grains with the same 125 tip.
To get a carbon to come in at weights of the aluminum I need to run a .340 and a big tip
Not worth it to me.

[ChuckC]

In my mind, we are playing several games here -Zor.  A heavy arrow generally takes more of the energy a bow has to offer.  This generally makes for a quieter bow at the shot.  Not all bows are the same, however, some are more efficient with lighter or heavier arrows so the above is a generality that I think is correct most times.

We also have to aim the arrow and get it to the game before they need to take a drink over the hill. Heavier arrows mean slower arrow speed.  A faster arrow tends to have less apparent drop than a slow arrow.  This usually makes adjustments smaller for various yardages, and since many of us here on this site are  instinctive shooters, smaller adjustments generally mean a bit better consistency in hitting.

A threshhold, as you asked about, is pretty much subjective, based upon experience, equipment and what an individual expects, and again, not all bows are alike in terms of ability.  

Making decisions like that makes my head hurt so I tend to try to get ~10ggp of bow.  That number has been bandied around for many years as a good guideline and I find very little fault in it, save Maybe for very light bows, and I am not in favor of very light bows for hunting.  

Pulling numbers out of the air, I am gonna say you should try not to go below 145 FPS of arrow speed, for those reasons posted above, and 20-40fps greater than that is much better, again, for all those reasons above.

So many things affect penetration.  Speed and arrow weight are just a couple of them, and in my mind, not the most important of the group.

[huskyarcher]

Will it work? Oh yea. But if you come to Ashe Co, NC to hunt hold at least 6in under the does chest.

I agree more weight up front is generally a good thing-but like anything there is a point of diminishing returns. With that setup you are at almost 15 grains per pound. Being a guy that shoots low 40s, i can promise you youre going to have to get used to holding way, way low.

That being said just have fun with it, the experimenting is half the fun!!

[-Zor]

Thanks Chuck. I have a new-to-me Holm Osprey on it's way and I'm trying to decide on an arrow recipe. I guess I could chrono it with some different arrow weights to help decide a final weight and build backwards from there.

[Wheels2]

My experience indicates that bows have a preference on arrow weight ranges.
I have chronographed several and find there is a point where the loss or gain in speed is
not on par with the change in arrow weight.

[smokin joe]

I have just cooked up a hunting arrow that is 10.1 grains per pound and 22% FOC. I used Gold Tip Velocity shafts -- the GT Velocity shafts make it easy to get reasonable weight and good FOC at the same time.

I use the same shafts, an inch longer, with lighter inserts to make a 9 GPP arrow for 3-D shooting.

[ChuckC]

-Zor.... I'm gonna be sacrilegious and say, don't make it too deep and difficult on yourself.  Put together an arrow that final weighs in the 9-11 gpp and it should work fine for everything.  For 3D 9 might shine, for hunting large game 10-11 might be a tad better.  

More important even than weight is to take the time to tune them to the system ( you / bow) so that they shoot well.

Done.  

go shoot some arrows.

[acedoc]

Originally posted by swamp donkey:
You can't kill what you can't hit. I gotta agree with Terry on that. I've tried everything from 400 to 700 gns. 700 lasted about 1 hunt after it lumbered along and barely stuck out the far side of an elk. I shoot aluminum with 160 Ace heads for 630gns out of recurves and 620 gn wood with the same heads out of longbows. I use those because I shoot around 60lbs and the 2219's are durable as are the heavier woods. Sometimes I consider those a bit too heavy even for 60lbs. If I shot 45lbs I wouldn't go over 450gns. Efoc is something I would jump on if I ever went cape buff hunting. But I've passed thru everything from mature bucks to moose over the last 52 years of hunting with stickbows without efoc or super heavy arrows. My heavy limits 10.5gpp, my low limits anything that won't break the bow and shoots well. Deer ribs are soft so that's not even a factor for me.JMHO....P.S.  To answer your question, yes it'll work but wouldn't be my choice.

The best I can concur with! No actual hunting on live animals but I have been running 4 arrow spines and several tip weights. My heaviest arrows are arrow dynamic heavy hunters and the lightest are  beman ics. Tips range from 100 gr stingers to 145 gr tigersharks and my home brew hill style heads at 245 grs. The following are the chrony numbers I got - 190 fps - 200 fps with arrows around 578-614 grain out of a 60 lb ilf setup.
My other bow is a trinity longbow and I absolutely love the accuracy with 300 spine Axis full length arrows (footed with Al) standard insert and woodsman heads. I will not buy the heavy hunters again because of the drop but will stick with the Axis and Beman.
The Axis with eskilite heads is often the deepest penetrator (in foam target).
The bow is quite with the heavy arrows.

[Tedd]

Consider your own draw length When referring to "grains per pound" and what a good weight/speed combination is for you. The old standard of "10 grains per pound". It's mostly likely a standard derived from a 28" draw. You might go to 9 GPP if you have a 27" draw.
10 GPP is too light for any bow that I have ever used. But I'm drawing 30". I use about 11GPP. Seems to be the best for speed and quiet. Whenever I try to drop down to 10 GPP you can tell it's being a little hard on the equipment.
Maybe the 125 grain heads on cedar might have become a standard because higher spine shafts were not as common as lesser spine. Not because the 125 made the ultimate weight shaft?

In the 50s and 60s heavy spine cedars were much easier to get than now.  There was a common thought that excessive head weight was a negative.  Lots of big name archers preferred lighter head weights. The light broadhead heavy arrow syndrome.
Of course, by heavy arrow they meant a cedar 11/32".  The Zwickey Eskimo on a 11/32 cedar shaft was good enough to kill a lot of game for many years.  For large wild hogs, which we have none around here, may need something stouter, but I was given some this year that was shot with an arrow that I made,  a 480 grain tapered cedar tipped with the lowly Zwickey Eskimo.

[LBR]

I've told the story many times.  My best friend's daughter has killed several mature deer with arrows that weigh 400 or so grains shot from a recurve she's pulling around 25@25 on (25# at 25").  She doesn't normally get pass through shots, but she gets both lungs and dead deer.  Longest shot was approximately 26 yards.  The poundage is legal here in MS.

[Chris Iversen]

Thank you so much for all of your advice guys! I love the access to such wisdom that this forum provides. I have taken all of your wisdom to heart.

After some consideration, I have dropped my arrow weight down a bit. I was concerned about arrow speed and a 675 grain arrow being way too slow. Terry Green mentioned the possibility of deer jumping the string and being gone by the time the arrow reaches its mark. This was my main concern, and why I started this thread. I am still intrigued by EFOC and heavier arrows, but I came to the conclusion that my set up was too heavy for two reasons. 1. Too slow for hunting jumpy deer, and 2. Tuning.

Regarding tuning, I made an interesting discovery. Having 350 grains up front, I assumed the arrow would naturally be weak. However, the more I shot, the more I was hitting left. I thought it was a form issue, and blamed that, initially. However, over time, I discovered it was pretty consistent (as is my form). After listening to Jimmy Blackmon on The Push Podcast, he mentioned that too much weight up front can cause a false stiff reading for some people. So I experimented and dropped my point weight by 50 grains... BINGO!

Now I'm still shooting a 225 grain glue on, but with a 75 grain adapter instead of a 125 grain before (300 grain total). This brought my shots back over from left much more consistently, maybe even a little weak (which is logical), but that's okay IMO. Arrow weight is now around 630 grains, and the arrow is noticeably faster. The chronometer at my club is reading arrow speeds around 165-170 fps. I never chrono'd the 675 grain arrows, but they are noticeably faster in my opinion. The trajectory is a little flatter, but not totally flat. I do enjoy an arc to my arrow flight.

I consider myself an instinctive shooter, as I focus on my target, as that is mostly natural for me. I played Lacrosse and Hockey all my life, and looking at my target and following through on my shot comes naturally. However, I am aware of my arrow tip, but I don't "aim" like a gap shooter. I'm aware of gap at different distances, but an arced arrow trajectory (and larger gaps) isn't an issue for me.

Point is, I think I've found my current sweet spot in arrow tuning. Key word is current, though haha! I'm sure I will play around again in the future. Thanks so much guys. Your wisdom helped get me there!

[Prairie Drifter]

You're getting 165fps w/ a 630gr arrow out of a 45# bow? I'd check that chronograph......

[Brock]

I typically go for a 620-640gr arrow total weight....I think with your inserts and the heads you are talking about it is too much honestly...for a 45# bow.  Now if you keep your shots to 15 yds +/- will be fine but I think you are going to be way up there in the 12-13gpp on your setup.

For a 45# bow I would go with a 160gr head at the most to be honest...on your shaft of preference with your fletching of preference and dont worry about it.

I typically go 11gpp out of 53-60# bows at my draw lengths for longbows, recurves, selfbows, rawhide backed bows.....

I think there can be TOO MUCH FOC and WEIGHT in the arrow....

I think you would be better served by an arrow in the 9-10gpp range based on your bow weight at your draw...and for shooting thin skinned animals at closer ranges of 20 yds or less.

Good luck.

[Tim Reese]

Agree with everyone else. I use 475-500 gr out of a 45#@29" recurve and am more than happy and confident using. The Doe I shot this year was quartering away and I blew through her so fast it was sticking in the ground on opposite side.

[Shaun]

With your 30" draw length, your arrows will be sticking in the dirt on the other side of deer even if you drop down in arrow weight.

Dr Ashby's report was based on the starting premise that we have no idea where we are going to hit the game animal. This was based on his survey of Michigan bow hunters who admitted missing completely (air ball) often. If you make a less than ideal hit, then penetration becomes critical.

Dr Ashby also noted that the most important factor in penetration was perfect arrow flight, not weight and momentum. Only after achieving perfect arrow flight did other factors start to make a difference.

Your big fat Canadian deer are not going to do a double flip and run 50 feet before the arrow gets there like Terry's Texas jitterbugs. Those southern deer are like wound springs waiting to hear a bow string.

Clean arrow flight, range where you can hit a tennis ball and you'll be posting hero pics.

[Terry Green]

Yeah Sean and it takes more energy to get through a balisticaly moving animal that it stationary one and I have killed a lot more dear than just in Texas..... not to mention passing through big shielded boars with multi blade heads which are  much more formidable than any deer from Florida to Canada

Again dear are basically chumps to pass through ...if you have to use an arrow this heavy to get through a deer you have other issues with your setup or your form...... save those heavy arrows for Hogs and Elk where it's needed with lighter weight bows

[Chris Iversen]

Thanks again guys. I've decided I'm not going to overthink anything anymore, and look at the basics. With my current setup (630 grain arrow and 47# @30 inch recurve), I am currently keeping 6 arrows within 6 to 8 inches of my intended target (a 1 inch wide plastic milk jug cap) at 20 yards.Usually five of them are within a 5-6 inch group, I often pull my 6th shot.  Arrow flight looks great. I'm feeling confident with it, so I'm going to give it a go this fall and not think about it anymore. Broadheads will be a 235 grain Grizzly Kodiak with a 75 grain brass insert/glue-in adapter. Lethal.

Thanks again! Hopefully I will have some photos to share this fall. If not, I guess that's hunting!  

[Terry Green]

Best of luck Sir....await your stories!