Advice on bow/bowyer predicament

[Jarrod Reno]

Hi all.

Got a situation and would love some thoughts. About a year and a half ago I purchased a brand new bow from a highly reputable bowyer, spent about $1200, so a good investment. After shooting for a few months there was pretty bad limb spots showing up to the point that the bowyer told me to stop shooting it and that he'd replace it. It was a long process and it was replaced by a different model, but in the end I was happy with it.

During the waiting period I picked up a used bow at RMSgear by the same bowyer but it was 74# at my draw length and so I had asked the bowyer if he could drop some of the weight, he said no problem and that he could take ~ 5ish pounds off of it for a couple hundred bucks. Done deal, I'd be $650 I to this bow.

While he was working on it something happened and he said he damaged it beyond repair and didn't offer a solution. So I had asked if he could replace the bow. After a few sporadic replys over the course of a few months and non-replies over the winter I'm now at about 8-9 months from the time this happened and I saw that he posted a bow that would work for my draw length so I emailed him. He's offering to take $250 off the full price of the bow.

I don't want to be ungrateful or ask too much but I feel like the majority of the bow's price should be covered. I paid for a shootable bow and trusted his judgement on reducing the weight and now I've been without this bow for almost a year. If he would have mentioned the possibility of it breaking I wouldn't have gotten it reduced. I could shoot it fine at that weight but wanted to shoot similar arrows to what I already had. Anyhow...

What would you do?

[McDave]

Normally, taking a few pounds off a bow, particularly one that the bowyer made himself, would not be considered a high risk operation.  However, $hit happens I guess.  Using a medical analogy, if a patient dies during an operation normally considered to be low risk, the doctor is not liable unless he was negligent.  Who knows if your bowyer was negligent or not?  Nobody was there watching him.  I would guess that while the bow was on his tillering jig, it just broke.

Now you have had two bows made by the same bowyer that have had defects.  If other people have similar experiences, he probably won't be in business much longer.  If I were the bowyer, I would try a little harder to make you happy than he seems to be doing.

[BOHO]

I would not be very happy. I haven't had a lot of bad experiences with trad bowyers but I have had a couple. One guy is almost out of business now if not closed up shop totally. I would just call him and see if you can't work out something you both can live with. If he's an ass about it, that will tell you all you need to know.

[Ray Lyon]

I could argue against 74# being a shootable bow.  Back in the late 70's and early 80's that was a shootable bow. The fact that you asked to have 5# taken off a bow that you purchased used meant that it was not a 'shootable' bow. While some bowyers will take weight off bows, most do not for just that very reason. Jeff Massie was one of the best at it and he did a couple of bows for me a while ago.  It's one thing to take weight off a 55 pound bow, but 75 pounds is a stout bow. As a consumer asking for a bowyer to do this, there's some risk (in my opinion only) to bear on your part. You've taken a used bow and now compromised the original integrity further. I'm surprised bowyers now days don't have a waiver for this type of service, even if it's there own bow.  Again, that's just my point of view.
Another way to look at it is try selling a 74# bow on classifieds and a 55 pound bow on the classifieds. I'd bet most of the time you'll see the 55# bow go for more money and quicker.  Therein lies your discount.

[Jarrod Reno]

Thanks for some input. I'm a craftsman myself and make custom hatchets that sell from $300-$600 and its been the case where I have gotten to the final stages of a clients hatchet and compromised the integrity, into the trash it went and I start from scratch. It was my fault so I'd fix it. That's where I stand with this, is I expected a high level of integrity from a fellow craftsman, especially someone well known.

Ray Lyon. in this case it Has nothing to do with the worth of a bow because of its weight. I currently shoot a 62# and 68# regularly. I'm 6' 2" and a lean 200 pounds and have been an athlete my whole life, I was shooting that 74#'s for weeks before I sent it to him. My goal was to shoot the same arrows that I have for the 68# bow, hence the drop in poundage. I spend $200+ for half dozen arrows so I didn't want to have 3 sets of arrows. He didn't give me an ounce of doubt that the bow could be compromised, I talked with him over the phone and he was in full confidence that it'd be an easy job.

[Jarrod Reno]

Ray Lyon, After reading your comment again I see where your coming from. Yes, this bow on the market as a used bow won't sell as quick but it sold pretty quick to me because it was what I was looking for and I got to shoot it at RMSGear in person multiple times before commiting to it. So it's worth a lot to me, but obviously not someone who can't shoot the weight.

[Ray Lyon]

Originally posted by Jarrod Reno:
Ray Lyon, After reading your comment again I see where your coming from. Yes, this bow on the market as a used bow won't sell as quick but it sold pretty quick to me because it was what I was looking for and I got to shoot it at RMSGear in person multiple times before commiting to it. So it's worth a lot to me, but obviously not someone who can't shoot the weight.

Agreed, I used to shoot #86 pound Howard Hill longbow back in the early 80's and then by late 80's I was in the low 70's and by 2000 I was around 60#. Now I'm in the 45-55 range. I think more people are in this range comparatively.
None the less, the bowyer did convey to you assuredly he could do this. One thing I've learned from some recent business mediation hearings is nobody wins in this situation (except the mediator and attorneys) even if you're right.  If you really want the bow he has, perhaps counter with $375 and call it a win.  Just food for thought. (Mediator's words to our business-even being right is going to cost you $2,000 more in fees to your attorney-is that worth it to you?--hardest pill to swallow ever!!). While we'd all like to think all in business feel the way we do, they don't. My posts here are all with the utmost respect to you. I'm just trying to give the unpleasant point of view that we don't want to hear sometimes and it's maybe better to take what you can get.

[JusAGuy]

WOW!

That just plain stinks. Seriously.

Having been a business owner in the past I can appreciate the difficulty and challenges of "making it right".

However, knowing you have to take of your customers/clientele, you would think Customer Service and willingness to "stand behind your product" is a part of every self-respecting craftsman.

As Ray says above, negotiate the sweetest deal you can and close that door forever.

In the next year or two i hope to buy a "custom" or semi-custom bow.

I suspect you're not the type to publicly defame someone which is admirable. However, I (and likely others as well) sure would appreciate knowing who to avoid.

I hope you are able to arrive at a reasonable compromise.

[Jarrod Reno]

I left his name out because I think everyone's jaw will drop. I absolutely love his bows and can't imagine shooting something else. Craftsmanship is seriously top notch along with performance.

I'll see how this pans out and let you know

[JusAGuy]

Interesting...

Maybe he's had a difficult "season" in life and isn't processing things clearly...

I do hope you're able to reach an amicable resolution.

[Keith Zimmerman]

Why would a 74# bow be considered not shootable??  I shoot that.  That comment makes no sense to me.

And I can understand his reasoning to have a little weight taken off.  Just because its used doesnt mean their should be a risk involved.  Bowyers build bows and take weight off to hit their goal.

I think the bowyer should replace ur bow with a new one.  His fault it happened.  If it was risky he shouldnt have started it.

[LBR]

Not exactly the same thing, but if I were to agree to re-serve a string for someone for a set price, then I screwed up and ruined the string in the process, I owe that customer a new string.  If I don't want to assume the risk, then I shouldn't agree to do the work to begin with.

The draw weight shouldn't matter IMO.  The bowyer wouldn't give a discount for building a heavy draw weight.  That would be like me saying I don't have to replace a string  because it's a color I rarely sell.

Best of luck.  A good friend of mine had a bowyer who used to be highly touted on this very board rip him off.  The excuses for a twisted limb on a new longbow included blaming it on the string...that the bowyer supplied with the bow!  Never got a bow that was shootable out of the deal.  Litigation, especially across state lines, costs more than you can generally recuperate.

[Cory Mattson]

What would you do?

I would tell all do not ask a bowyer to "take weight" off. I would tell all bowyers to not do it if asked. Seems this is the issue since you have a good outcome with the first bow - which as I see it has nothing to do with this issue where you are dissatisfied.

I can't figure out what the bowyer owes you if anything - seems something is in order since he took the job. I wish he hadn't. The credit he offered might be close to making this right?

Never had any difficulty with any bowyers - some have missed weight - I didn't care took the bows paid full would not take a break if offered. Had some bows break and the bowyer rebuilt no charge good as new. I only work with bowyers directly though. Buying used bows I view this not a direct connection.Just my opinion. One time I blew up a used bow and alerted the original bowyer only as a professional courtesy on my part - we became friends for life.  

Good Luck
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[Jarrod Reno]

I've thought about it long and hard.

Hind sight is 20:20. I wonder if he'll ever do a weight reduction again. Before I asked him I had posted about it on here and a whole mess of folks told me they've done and and it's no problem.

You'll think that this is easy for me to say since I'm on the hard end of the deal but If it were my client I'd replace the bow 100%. BUT, 2nd to that I'd at least offer to pay the man back for what he bought the bow for so that the situation evens out.

It would be my responsibility to make it right whether that's replace the bow or the investment.

Different story if I bought the bow and blew it up. I'd expect nothing back and I'd learn not to ever buy a used bow again.

Point in posting on here is I wondered what others would think and if my thinking was outlandish.

[Sam McMichael]

Jarrod, I think he owes you more. He took on the job, and he muffed it. It is up to him to make good on it. Just my opinion, nothing more.

[nineworlds9]

So you paid 450 for the used bow?  I'm assuming he didn't charge you the 200 for the job after all was said and done?  So you're 450 into the bow that blew up?  He offered 250 off a new bow?  So your loss is 200 in the end?  I'm just running the numbers.  It would seem he essentially warrantied 55% of your used bow's value?  How old was it?  Most bowyers don't warranty anything past 3-5 years.  Some with exceptional services and ability to absorb losses will do more than that, but that's only a few bowyers I personally know of.  

It sounds like he was attempting a somewhat fair arrangement?  Are you wanting the full 450 out of him basically?  He certainly doesn't owe you a brand new bow for free.  I think with some negotiating you guys could reach an amicable agreement.  Whether he built your used bow or not, it all depends on how old it was, how many owners it had, who knows maybe a prior owner damaged it?  There is a good chance it was fired with arrows too light for it, plenty of folks might be too lazy to shoot at least 8gpp on a 74# bow...that's a roughly 600gr arrow.  A 5# reduction shouldn't be a real big deal theoretically, BUT the procedure still involves risk.

[nineworlds9]

The unfortunate fact is many bowyers are not full time operations, and they are not set up to absorb the cost of all product failures like a Walmart.  Is this right?  Not necessarily, but in the end it depends o if it can be proven he was negligent doing the reduction? I think it would be a little different if the bow you sent in was one you bought directly from him new once upon a time, but it seems it was one of his bows from a third party (RMS)??..we all take risks buying used bows.  It sucks when it happens.  

I hope you get it resolved in a manner you can be happy with!

[Rough Run]

The bowyer had an opportunity to rethink the decision to reduce the weight once he got the bow in his shop and could see & inspect it in person.  He undertook the work and assumed the responsibility for that work.  I agree that he should make it right, and that would be covering the amount you paid for the bow, at the least.

[monterey]

BUT, 2nd to that I'd at least offer to pay the man back for what he bought the bow for so that the situation evens out.
 

If it were me in your situation, that would be the preferred outcome.  In fact, if I were the bowyer that would be the preference also!

Reducing weight on a bow is not rocket science.  An experienced competent bowyer should be able to do it without much fanfare.  Especially on his own product.

[oldbohntr]

He took the job in and made a statement which led Jarrod to think he would get his bow back lighter and in one piece.  Since it broke in the bowyer's hands, that trumps whatever else went before.  In my business, I knew when I took a customer's product apart, and dropped or damaged a part, it became "mine" in the sense that I had to fix it or at least share the cost of the repair that was due to me-and saving a customer meant being "very generous" about that!

I would have no problem expecting a bowyer to be willing to lighten the DW on a bow he built for me.   I'd be far less likely to ask him to lighten one I bought used(and I think he'd be much wiser to refuse such a request!) But, since he did -and the bow broke(?)in his hands, then his customer service reputation is on the line.

But if the bowyer doesn't see it that way, Jarrod is left to salvage whatever he can from the deal.