Carbon longbow limbs?

[bucknut]

I'm on the list for a Java Man Falcon and want to custom it up a little. I have a little while to think on it yet and I am thinking of a carbon back. Just want to hear some opinions on carbon. What you like about it. What you don't like. How much more sound will it add? Maybe even a pic or 2 if you can.
Thanks, John

[McDave]

I have two bows at the moment with carbon limbs.  Both have wood cores.  I have no experience with foam cores, which is a whole different dimension to your question.

The first is a one-piece Schaffer Silvertip longbow, and the second is a takedown Hoyt Satori recurve.  

The Schaffer is a 42# 66" longbow, which I bought to shoot in longbow competitions that require wood arrows.  My wood arrows are about 10 gpp.  This bow shoots them at a ho-hum 166 fps.  The interesting thing is that I have a 40# Toelke Lynx 66" longbow that shoots the same arrows at the same speed, without any carbon in the limbs. I really can't tell any difference in shooting the Lynx or the Silvertip, so I am fairly indifferent between the two.  Some longbow competitions require one-piece, so in those I would obviously shoot the Silvertip, but with an extra 2# and carbon limbs, you would think it would perfrom better than it does compared with the Lynx.

I have several 40# recurves to choose from, including a Black Widow, a Bob Lee, and a Rick Welch Dakota.  The BW and the Bob Lee are about 6 fps slower than the the Satori, shooting the same arrow.  The Dakota is about 2 fps slower.  The Satori will shoot a 7.9 gpp carbon arrow at 192 fps, whereas the BW and Bob Lee come in at about 186 fps.  In fairness, I think the Satori was designed to shoot a low gpp arrow, whereas the other two were not.  The Dakota was designed to shoot a fast arrow, but the Satori is a little faster with slightly less aggressive design features.

So in my mind, the jury is still out as to the benefit of carbon limbs.  My friend and mentor Rick Welch has stopped putting carbon in the limbs of his bows, because in his opinion it adds expense without commensurate benefit.  I had one of his earlier recurves with carbon, which didn't seem to shoot noticeably better than bows with non-carbon limbs.

I'm beginning to think that you need to have specific expertise in carbon limbs to get the most out of them, which Hoyt seems to have.  Just putting carbon in limbs without understanding the underlying mechanics and engineering doesn't seem to add much to the performance of a bow.  But, as I said before, my experience is very limited.

[bucknut]

Thanks for the input. I talked with Gregg Coffey about the addition of carbon and his opinion on speed was near the same as your results. 6-8 Fps over his non carbon model. He said it did significantly increase torsional stability weight and quietness. I have just read a lot of people having a ping sound at release with some carbon. The question is like Rick said, is the extra cost worth the benefit. I see a lot of  centaurs and Acs bows with carbon so they are apparently seeing something special in the use of carbon in them. The jury is still out.  Hopefully we will have more people weigh in with their opinion.
John

[Orion]

6-8 fps is a lot. That's the equivalent of 3-4# of bow draw weight.

Regardless, design has a lot to do with what one will get out of carbon.  I think it really shines in my ACSs.  Faster and lighter than most other hybrids. BTW, I think one can go too physically light on bows. Very light bows are more difficult to hold steady vis-a-vis heavier bows.  

The carbon limbs I own and have owned do have a somewhat different pitch at the shot than glass limbs.  Not necessarily louder, just different. Have always been able to silence them to my satisfaction.

[George Vernon]

For most longbows with a deep core design, the main benefit of carbon would be the ability to make lighter weight limbs and see an increase in speed due to quicker recovery times.  I think recurves will have much more pronounced benefits.  Here's why.

My reaction to the recurve carbon limbs I've tried was so-so until I got some Z4 limbs from Bill Dunn at Zipper.  I put a pair of longs, that pull 45# @ 28" on my DAS Master Hunter.  There are three stand out elements of Bill's design.  

One is stability.  This is one set of limbs no one will be able to twist while stringing or shooting.  The resistance to lateral twisting is amazing.  

The recurve tips make a pronounced hook.  When unstrung the end of the limbs is perpendicular to the lengthwise centerline of the bow.  So the 'hook' is a full 90 degrees, maybe a bit more, made possible by the lateral stiffness.   One benefit of the hook is the draw force curve.  The preload on the string is evident by the heavy feel of draw weight early in the draw.  As one approaches 28", or whatever draw length you tell Bill, the pounds/inch or slope of the draw force curve drops to less that 2#/inch.  Almost feels like the drop off on a compound.  This makes it much easier for me to get to full draw and establish a firm anchor vs. bows with the typical 3#/" slope.

I'm not a speed demon but the trajectory of arrows shot at 50-60 yards was so flat I had to go to the chronograph and see what was going on.  My carbon arrows have a total weight of 430-435 grains, so about 9.6 grains/pound with the 45# limbs.  I see a consistent 196-203 fps with my finger release.

So is carbon the solution for all?  I don't think so.  I believe folks like Bill Dunn have designed a recurve limb that takes advantage of the properties of carbon.  Many others have simply put a carbon layer in an existing limb design.  Yes they can advertise carbon, but that doesn't mean you are going to get any benefits.  Border limbs seem to have the same properties as the Z4.  

Like everything else, it's buyer beware.  Best to try before you buy and see if carbon limbs provide benefits for you.  For me, the stability and smoothness of the draw were the main benefits.  Not sure if these benefits would be as pronounced in longbows.

[JohnV]

There is nothing magical about carbon.  Simply substituting carbon for fiberglass does not turn a slow shooting bow into a speed demon.  The bow design is far more important.  The faster bows that utilize carbon were designed and optimized for the use of carbon.

[bucknut]

Speed isn't really a big factor for me. I want a smooth, quiet, stabil, dead in the hand bow.  If the speed comes with it then great.  I'm more interested in what people like or dislike about the carbon longbows they've owned to help me make a better informed decision.
John

[McDave]

Originally posted by bucknut:
Speed isn't really a big factor for me. I want a smooth, quiet, stabil, dead in the hand bow.

Both my carbon limbed Silvertip and my all wood Lynx have all the qualities you mention.  I really don't notice pulling the extra 2# when I'm shooting the Silvertip, nor, as I mentioned, is there really any noticeable increase in performance.  I've had several other longbows over the years that haven't met my expectations in one way or another that I have sold, but these two are keepers.  They are both moderately r/d longbows with contoured grips.  They've both been tuned to shoot arrows in as close to the same place as I'm capable of shooting, so I could use them interchangeably as I desire or as tournament rules require.  I'm not worried about limb twist in a longbow, so having carbon limbs to avoid limb twist is not a factor for me.

So in my case, the extra I had to pay to get carbon limbs on the Silvertip was probably not worth it for me.  On the other hand, it is one of the two nicest longbows I've shot, so I'm not planning on selling it either.

[bucknut]

Any input from you Centaur or A&H guys?

[nineworlds9]

Buck it's all in the limb design/ r/d ratio. Like these guys said, you can't take a slow bow and throw in carbon and expect it to perform better.  Carbon is a weight saver and stiffener to keep radical limbs from being noodly.  I find it can make a bow a bit more forgiving of string torque/ plucking.  It is not louder, if anything quieter and less vibration, again design dependent.  It just has a higher pitch not volume.  

That being said, design is everything.  My Stickflinger for example, has such a sweet limb it doesn't need any carbon, same can be said for my Bobcat.  Caribows are smokers and Abe doesn't use carbon.  

Centaurs happen to benefit from it because Jim has gone to a lot of trouble to design the bow with the material in mind, same goes for the ACS bows, a good design gets better.

[old_goat2]

I've had carbon with foam core limbs and never heard a ping sound from them or anybody else's. Carbon is a great material, but it's not magic and it isn't pretty to look at!

[Friend]

The Centaur Triple Carbon Elite and Dryad LBX's have been excellent choices for me.

Quiet, excellent shooting experience, accurate and noticeably quicker than the vast majority of recurves.