Can’t Reduce Hand Shock In My NM Superior, Need Ideas

[allanburden]

My Baraga has almost no hand shock, but I can’t seen to get this Superior to get any less “thumpy”, I’m aware they are two different styles and it may be that the Superior just isn’t for me.  It’s to the point that after five shots my left hand is throbbing. I’ve played with the brace height, moving from 6” to 7.25” and all points in between with barely any discernible difference. I’m shooting Gold Tip traditional carbons with a 400 spine and 175 grains up front at 30 inches. They bareshafted well and fly beautifully. I group well out to 20 yards which is my max for hunting but just cannot get comfortable shooting this bow. Will a significantly heavier arrow help with the hand shock? That’s about the only thing left that I can think of to try. Otherwise I’m just going to have to move in to another bow. Thanks for any and all advice

[dirtguy]

You could work up some heavier arrows.

What is the draw weight of the bow.

You could also look at your grip.

[nineworlds9]

What kind of string are you using and how many twists per inch?

10gpp or more you should feel a pulse but not "shock".  How you grip the bow, and a low grip like what is probably on there will affect the dynamic tiller of the bow and can throw the timing of the limbs off.  Basically what I'm saying is you cannot shoot these bows gripping them lightly like a recurve and putting the pressure on your thumb joint.  You need to grip it fully, firmly yet not squishing it.  Heel the grip along the life line of your hand, and keep a bend in your elbow.  Shooting with a straight arm, near lockout like with a higher wristed recurve will not work favorably.
If you're shooting B50 get rid of that stuff and obtain a well constructed string of at least D97 or another modern material like BCY X or Rhino or Fury.  Shoot for a string that will not be more than about 1 twist per inch at your desired brace height.  I say this because in my experience over twisted strings act like a spring as they are pulled and released and this minute shift in the fibers will add shot reaction.

[fujimo]

heavier arrows could deal with the symptoms, but for cause i would look at a few things
first and foremost - limb timing- limb timing out of whak will get very "shockey".
are you shooting it the way it was tillered( split vs 3 under) as that will throw out the limb timing.
heavy tips?

if you have access to a tillering tree with a pull rope check out the limb timing- i can send you some info if you would like!
good luck mate- hope you can work it out!

[allanburden]

Originally posted by dirtguy:
You could work up some heavier arrows.

What is the draw weight of the bow.

You could also look at your grip.

Draw weight is 50lbs @ 29”, definitely will have to check my grip. Thanks!

[allanburden]

Originally posted by nineworlds9:
What kind of string are you using and how many twists per inch?

10gpp or more you should feel a pulse but not "shock".  How you grip the bow, and a low grip like what is probably on there will affect the dynamic tiller of the bow and can throw the timing of the limbs off.  Basically what I'm saying is you cannot shoot these bows gripping them lightly like a recurve and putting the pressure on your thumb joint.  You need to grip it fully, firmly yet not squishing it.  Heel the grip along the life line of your hand, and keep a bend in your elbow.  Shooting with a straight arm, near lockout like with a higher wristed recurve will not work favorably.
If you're shooting B50 get rid of that stuff and obtain a well constructed string of at least D97 or another modern material like BCY X or Rhino or Fury.  Shoot for a string that will not be more than about 1 twist per inch at your desired brace height.  I say this because in my experience over twisted strings act like a spring as they are pulled and released and this minute shift in the fibers will add shot reaction.

Thank you for the very detailed reply. I will definitely have to check my grip and bow arm. Also I believe I will order a new string to these specs and see what happens. Again, I greatly appreciate your help.

[allanburden]

Originally posted by fujimo:
heavier arrows could deal with the symptoms, but for cause i would look at a few things
first and foremost - limb timing- limb timing out of whak will get very "shockey".
are you shooting it the way it was tillered( split vs 3 under) as that will throw out the limb timing.
heavy tips?

if you have access to a tillering tree with a pull rope check out the limb timing- i can send you some info if you would like!
good luck mate- hope you can work it out!

I don’t currently have a tillering tree but have considered building one, looks like it’s definitely time. I am shooting the bow as it was originally tillered, 3 under. I would greatly appreciate any information you feel led to provide. As I hope to begin trying to build self bows soon and have been looking at plans for tillering trees here and elsewhere.

I assume the Superior on the other thread is this bow.  A bowstring change may make some difference and perhaps a longer brace height.  Not saying you are doing this, but I have seen three under shooters have a tapered release finger grip with a short bow ans then go to a strong ring finger when shooting a longer and lighter draw bow.  How did Hill describe his bow grip?  Like a bird, you don't want it to fly away, but you don't want to hurt it either, or something like that.  You should not need to do anything extreme.  But if you are locking your elbow and trying to squeeze the rosin out of the riser wood, you will feel everything the bow has to give.  Have you tried shooting it with your release fingers as high as a split finger shooter would?  Several years ago a three under recurve shooter could not get his bow to settle down.  I checked his tiller, he was not to keen on me getting out my rasps and sand paper.  We split the difference, We raised his nocking point and I stuck a para rest on his bow.  Then the bow was in balance.

[joe vt]

Your Superior and Barage wouldn't be the same length would they? I was thinking you could swap strings to see if its that.


I think you should give Steve @ NM a call. He of all people know the differences between the models.  He is great to talk to on the phone. I bet he can point you in the right direction.

[allanburden]

Originally posted by pavan:
I assume the Superior on the other thread is this bow.  A bowstring change may make some difference and perhaps a longer brace height.  Not saying you are doing this, but I have seen three under shooters have a tapered release finger grip with a short bow ans then go to a strong ring finger when shooting a longer and lighter draw bow.  How did Hill describe his bow grip?  Like a bird, you don't want it to fly away, but you don't want to hurt it either, or something like that.  You should not need to do anything extreme.  But if you are locking your elbow and trying to squeeze the rosin out of the riser wood, you will feel everything the bow has to give.  Have you tried shooting it with your release fingers as high as a split finger shooter would?  Several years ago a three under recurve shooter could not get his bow to settle down.  I checked his tiller, he was not to keen on me getting out my rasps and sand paper.  We split the difference, We raised his nocking point and I stuck a para rest on his bow.  Then the bow was in balance.

Yes, same bow. Baraga is in my profile photo. Thanks for the information.

[allanburden]

Originally posted by joe vt:
Your Superior and Barage wouldn't be the same length would they? I was thinking you could swap strings to see if its that.


I think you should give Steve @ NM a call. He of all people know the differences between the models.  He is great to talk to on the phone. I bet he can point you in the right direction.

No, the Baraga is 60” and the Superior is 66”. The Baraga is more reflex/deflex than the Superior which maintains more of the classic “D” shape. I think you’re right though, time to fire off an email to Steve

[LBR]

First thing I'd check would be the string.  A properly made string with a low-stretch material should help.

Even with excessive twist, none of the modern materials will act like a spring.  Easy to check on a scale by comparing draw weights at a given draw length, or (like I do) on a stretcher under a 200-300# load (much more than any bow will ever put on it).  String material has no degree of  temper or memory, which is essential to create a spring.  It is a common misconception.  I don't like excessive twist myself, if for no other reason the way it looks.

[Pete McMiller]

As a couple of the others have said, try a different string.  In my case it made a huge difference.  A number of years ago I bought a used but pristine 1986 Hill Big Five.  Like you, I couldn't shoot that bow more than about 5 shots and my elbow ached.  I switched out the stock string which I believe was Dacron for an 8 strand 8125 string that I made up.  The difference in the bow was night and day and it became a very comfortable shooter.  I have put 8 strand strings on every bow I have bought since then.

[ron w]

Grip, make sure the heal of your hand is making contact with the grip not the web between your thumb and first finger. I have found that with a ASL longbow it's grip, grip, grip.

[allanburden]

Originally posted by ron w:
Grip, make sure the heal of your hand is making contact with the grip not the web between your thumb and first finger. I have found that with a ASL longbow it's grip, grip, grip.

Just came in from another session in the back yard and tried this...my grip was definitely the main culprit. By focusing on ensuring I had the heel of my palm making contact versus my normal recurve grip (which isn’t an issue with my Baraga) things improved dramatically. I’m still going to get a new string on her as well. Thanks all for the help!

[Crittergetter]

String count matter also. IMO
I prefer 16-18 strands

[nineworlds9]

Originally posted by LBR:
First thing I'd check would be the string.  A properly made string with a low-stretch material should help.

Even with excessive twist, none of the modern materials will act like a spring.  Easy to check on a scale by comparing draw weights at a given draw length, or (like I do) on a stretcher under a 200-300# load (much more than any bow will ever put on it).  String material has no degree of  temper or memory, which is essential to create a spring.  It is a common misconception.  I don't like excessive twist myself, if for no other reason the way it looks.

Thanks for your insight on this Chad.  I dunno, my spring perception may just be leftover from dealing with overly twisted Dacron and maybe some of the early FF materials, I just always had this sense that an over twisted string never felt as crisp to me on the shot as one with minimal twists.  Either way, you reaffirmed what I was trying to tell him, a good string makes the bow.  It's like a new set of tires on a sportscar.

[LBR]

You aren't alone 9W9.  It stands to reason, at least at first look--but when you get geeky with it that theory kinda' falls apart.  I know of a bowyer that is promoting a certain amount of twist in a string for that very reason...he thinks he makes it act like a spring.  Polyester (Dacron) is the only material that has any degree of elasticity to it.

[Sixby]

Answer is timing and to get it right you have to heel a 3 under tillered bow in order to have the limb timing right. Go shoot the bow with a full grip and firmly in contact and you will definately feel the difference. You may also trick the bow by adding a bit of leather or even tape to the heel of the grip.

God bless, Steve

[STICKBENDER98]

Sounds like you've gotten some great advise here, I have three of Steve's bows, a Baraga, Whisper, and Ramer.  All three still have the strings on them that they came with, but it has been a real learning curve for me since all I have ever shot was recurves.  Grip definitely makes a difference with them, the another thing I have found is shooting split finger has helped me, (I shoot my recurves three under).  They also seem to like heavier spine arrows, I'm shooting Doug Firs from Surewood Shafts, 60-65# spine, my bows range from 48# @ 28" to 52# @ 28" with 125 grain tips glued on 100 grain woody weights that gives me a total weight of 700-705 grains.  Not sure if this will help you but it works for me,  happy shooting and good luck.


Jason