Front "Node" in relation to "Strike Plate"

[Donnie]

To All,

For years I have always tuned my arrows (cut them,) so that the front node is directly centered on the rest, or burger button.  (When I was shooting compounds.)  Now that I'm shooting Traditional... I have pretty much thrown the book out the window and had to start all over from scratch.  (For the most part...   :rolleyes:   )

Well... I have been tuning a set of new arrows, and believe that I have found the ones I like the most.  But... I noticed that the front node was almost (2) two inches in front of my rest.  ("In front" meaning, "Beyond the front of my riser," or "Ahead of my hand")  

One of the problems that I have had is that I have the tendency to shoot slightly left.  There are many things that can cause me to hit left... but I got to wondering if maybe because my front node wasn't centered on the strike plate, (usually about 2 to 3 inches forward of the strike plate,) if the arrow was actually flexing off of the strike plate causing me to hit to the left.  (Yes... the arrows are tuned.)

I was just curious how much effort everyone puts into making sure that your front node is centered on your strike plate or rest... or do you even bother with it at all?

Take care!

Donnie

[aromakr]

Donnie:
First off I don't have a clue what you are talking about! Front node? What is a front node, are you shooting bamboo shafting?
Bob

[poekoelan]

From what I understand, a node is a spot on the shaft that doesn't vibrate like the rest of the shaft. It's a sweet spot. Like the proper grip area on a baseball bat. Here's how I understood it: baseball bats and bows give you handshock if you don't grip them in the right area. Arrows also experience this shock when the bow string slams home but we can't tell because we don't grip them.

A guy on another site that I visit concerning self bows talks about this every once in a while. I never experimented with it, but he talked about a method for finding the node by tapping the shaft and listening to the pitch.

That's how I understood it, but I've never experimented with it.

Austin

[aromakr]

I've been making arrows over fifty years and close to fifteen comercially. I really think you guy's are trying to make rocket science out of a primitive sport.Why not have some fun!!
Bob

[Donnie]

poekoelan,

Well... yer pretty darn close.  I've been searching the web to try and find a picture an arrows nodes.  All I could come up with is if you look up the Easton Tuning Guide... on about page 3 or 4 you will see a drawing of an arrow and the nodes of the arrow.

Basically... when an arrow flexes during archers paradox, there are 2 neutral points or "nodes" on the arrow in which there is the least amount of movement when the arrow flexes. (One node is a few inches from the rear of the arrow, while the front node is a few inches from the front of the arrow.)  The length of the arrow... spine... and weight all play a roll in the location of these "nodes".  

At first glance... when an arrow is going through paradox... the arrow is flexing back and fourth, seemingly not even pointing at the target. BUT!... if you were to draw an imaginary "straight" line through both the rear and the front node... and then extend that same line towards the target... you will find that the 2 nodes are lined up perfectly to the place where the arrow will ultimately hit.  (Man... I wish I had a picture to show you!)

Okay... with most (if not all,) FITA and Olympic style shooters... they are concerned that their front node is centered the burger button, or rest.  (The point in which the "Strike Plate", "Burger Button", "Plunger", or "Rest", touches the "side" of the arrow at full draw.)  The node is that part of the shaft that has the least amount of flex, once the arrow is released.  

When the arrow is released... the center of the arrow flexes towards the riser (right handed, fingers shooter,) while the tip of the arrow flexes away, thus beginning archers paradox.  But... somewhere between the middle of the arrow that is flexing towards the riser... and the tip of the arrow... that is flexing away from the riser... there is a neutral point on the arrow that doesn't flex at all.  This is your node... and long distance shooters want this "neutral point" (or node) to be on the rest or burger button at full draw.  "Theoretically"... the arrow wont flex off of the rest, one direction or another, upon release.  (They want this neutral point, or "NODE" to be the arrows contact point at full draw.)

aromakr,

So... here is how you find your front node...

Lightly hold one of your arrows between your two finger tips, several inches from the end of the arrow.  Allow the arrow to hang "loosely" down towards the floor.  Now... swing the fletched end of your arrow and cause it to strike an object like the arm of a wooden chair... or a counter top... ect... ect...  When you do this... you will feel the arrow vibrate between your finger tips.

Do this several times, each time adjusting your finger tips up and down the shaft.  If your finger tips are outside of this neutral point (or node) your fingers will deaden the amount of vibration in the arrow shaft, and the arrow will hardly vibrate.  BUT!... when you find the spot in which the arrow vibrates the longest... THIS is your front node.  (What you are feeling is the arrow pivoting between your two fingers.)  This is the neutral spot on your arrow, while the rest of your arrow flexes through archers paradox.

Over the past few day... I have yet to meet a Traditional archer who was concerned about the location of their front node... which tells me that I probably should worry about it either.

Take care!

Donnie

PS... aromakr,  

I like Rocket Science... Besides... I look Goooooood in a white lab coat!!!!    :D      

Actually... I was just curious if the "flexing" was ever a problem to Traditional shooters... since I'm still new to shooting Traditional Equipment!  (I was just being curious!)

[McDave]

Here is a discussion of nodes:   http://handbook.jousiammuntaseura-arcus.com/nuoliviritys.htm   .  I have been somewhat of a compulsive reader on instinctive archery topics for quite a few years, and didn't know what nodes were either, so I suspect you're right, Donnie, that instinctive archers don't pay much attention to it. Mostly, the advice is either to cut your arrows 1" longer than your draw length and tune the arrows by adding weight to the tips and/or the tails, or to use whatever tip you want and tune your arrows by gradually cutting back on the length of the arrow.  Neither of which would end up with the nodal point centered on the rest, except by coincidence.

So since all these high-powered instinctive archers I've read haven't bothered about nodes, but competition archers do, my guess is that it's not a concern at normal instinctive ranges, say 30 yards and under, but if you were trying to get a tighter group than the next guy at 100 yards, maybe it would be a factor to consider.

[poekoelan]

Aromaker,
Experimenting with things like this IS a big part of the fun for me.

After I got better explaination from Donnie, they are on my to do list. At least finding them on arrows that fly well for me is.

As a matter of fact, I may have unknowingly experimented today....

I was shooting a new self bow in the basement, experimenting with different spines. I have a 27" draw and I shot two arrows spined 50/55 from this bow. One was 28" long and the other 29" long. Both flew well on my short indoor range, I couldn't discern a difference. Once I went up to an arrow 30" long in the same spine group, I got some squirrelly flight.

Now...according to the old rules of thumb....If a 29" arrow in the 50/55 group flies well for me, then a 28" arrow in the 45/50 group should also fly well, so I shot one a few times. But it flew just like the 30" arrow in the 50/55 group: squirrelly. The rule of thumb didn't seem to apply here. Wonder if it was a node thing??

I should say that this bow has a very wide arrow pass, so that makes it more particular in arrow spine and possibly node positions.

[poekoelan]

Donnie,
Just curious about something. Do you know how very long arrows might be affected by nodes? I mean arrows that are 36" to 40" long.

Thanks.

[Donnie]

poekoelan,

To be very honest... I would have to say "No"... I really don't know.

The theory is that when the node is on the contact point of the bow at full draw... there is less of a chance of the arrow's flight being affected by the flexing of the shaft off of the contact point.  So... in the past... my arrows have been around 28 1/2 to 29 inches and the node sat directly on my rest. (compound.)  

Now... the arrows that I REALLY like, (that seem to shoot great,) are carbon 300's cut at 32 1/2".  This puts the node 2 7/16" past the front of my riser. (or 3 11/16" past my strike plate.)   And... I guess I really don't see any ill effects thus far.  (Although I'm still having a tough time with my arrows hitting slightly left of center.  I'm quite certain that it has something to do with my form... probably my release.  Either that or I'm looking down the arrow wrong.)

I guess if you were to use the theory behind all of this... and extrapolate it out to a spear... I mean "ARROW" that was 40" long... (    :D    ) my "GUESS" (W.A.G. at that!) would be that the node (or neutral point of the arrow) would be approximately 7 or 8 inches beyond the front of the riser, and your contact point of the riser would be well within the area of the shaft that is more prone to flexing.  

My thought would be that once the arrow was released... the center (or middle) of the arrow would flex enough to actually have an affect on the way it leaves the rest.  (at least that is my "THEORY".)  Your contact point would be a lot closer to the area of the arrow that is NORMALLY trying to get around your riser.  I would think that unwanted contact issues might become a problem.  I would think that in order to get CONSISTENT arrow flight... it would be crucial to have a VERY consistent draw length, and release.  You might not see much of a distance at short distances, (30 yards,) but it might be a real handful to try and control at longer distances.

Again... I'm doing some major guessing here with an arrow at such a length.

All in all... I was kinda hoping that someone would have said that the reason my arrows were hitting left was because my arrow was flexing off the strike plate.  So... I would have then just simply cut the arrows down to where the front node was on the strike plate, and Voila!  Instant miracle!  But... it doesn't seem to really matter with Traditional Equipment... which leaves me back with form and release as the likely culprit.      

Take care!

Donnie