The most important form issue!

[jonsimoneau]

I really feel that proper bone allignment during the shot is about the most important issue related to form.  If you get your allignment correct, everything else seems to fall in place naturally.  When you are fully extended during draw, you cannot help but maintain back tension.  Also, your release will normally be clean.
     Last summer I took shooting lessons with Rick Welch.  After leaving, I had never been shooting better in my life.  However recently, I had him build me a new set of heavier limbs.  I began bareshafting.  Once I got arrows flying correctly, I fletched them and began shooting.  No matter what I did, I was always shooting to the left.  I kept thinking my arrows were too stiff, until I had a combination that was actually WAY underspined.  Still I shot to the left.  I then got to thinking about alignment and realized I was falling back into bad habits.  My shoulder was always pointed to the left of where I was aiming, causing my bow arm to jerk to the left.  Now I realized the problem and made a concentrated effort to get alligned every shot.  The problem is slowly going away.  Sometimes you get lazy, and don't get into good form and things suffer.  When you are alligned properly during the shot, it is less strain on your muscles, and your accuracy improves dramatically.

[smoke1953]

You're exactly right Jon, learning to rely and recognize the back muscles total involvment in the shot, lines the shoulders with the arrow. However just when we've thought we've figured it out it's something else.  Isn't it great!

[Terry Green]

Yep Jon.......I've been preaching it for years.

Proper aligment is the foundation of good form....and prevents numerous shooting problems.

[Papa]

Jon,

Do you shoot three fingers under?  If you do not, did Rick encourage you to?  I have been thinking of going to him for some coaching.  He is fairly close to my neck of the woods.

Thanks

[Ray Johnson]

Bone alignment is exactly the thing that I've been trying to work on lately.I've been having some shooting problems lately and am wondering if my alignment isn't what it should be.My question is "what is proper bone alignment?""how do I know if I have proper alignment?".I've been shooting a recurve for 5 years now and have been inconsistent in my accuracy.I'll go through periods where I shoot really well and then some serious slumps.I think alignment is part of my problem.Yesterday,I shot alot of arrows and I was really sore in my bow shoulder and upper back on the side of my bow shoulder.Is this an indication that I'm not properly aligned?

[SHOOTO8S]

Ray...maybe this will help


 

[McDave]

Quoting Jon: "My shoulder was always pointed to the left of where I was aiming...."  Or stated another way, I have always heard, "point your shoulder at the target."  And yet, when I see a diagram of proper allignment, whether the one above or Terry's clock, it doesn't look to me like the shoulder is pointing at the target.  If you look at the diagram above, it looks to me like the shoulder is pointing to the left of the target, assuming the target is in line with the arrow.  What am I missing here?

[GrayRhino]

In the above picture, seems to me like the only way to get the shoulders in line with the arrow/target, would be to move the back foot to be in line with the front. Am I right?  This is something I'm trying to figure out.

[Terry Green]

There's a lot of info on this subject posted right here on this forum.......and some of it is on the videos posted at the top.

My diagram does show the shoulders inline with the target and parallel to the arrow.  Not only the shoulders....but the energy power points are also a straight line with the arrow. (wrist and elbow)

     

[Terry Green]

Here's a thread that shows what can happen when the shoulders are pointing left....as you can see in the clip, it causes a lot of movement left on the shot....

   Shooting thread

[McDave]

GrayRhino: No, actually there is another way, which is to keep his feet the way they are, but to rotate his body so that his shoulders are in line with the target, by pivoting at the knees and waist.  That's what I try to do, as it allows me to always make the shot with the same shoulder allignment, regardless of the position my feet may be in, which I believe is helpful in hunting when I may not always be able to choose my foot position when I get the shot.

The other alternative is just to shoot with an open position, feet, body, and shoulders, as illustrated in Shooto8s's diagram above.  I believe Fred Asbell does this, although I also seem to notice him pivot a little as he draws, so his final position is not quite as open as he starts.

However, I have found in my own practice that I seem to do better if my shoulders end up parallel with the arrow, as I believe is the case with Terry's clock.  I don't think my shoulders ever end up actually pointing at the target, which would result from shooting from a closed position.

[McDave]

Terry:  Sorry, I guess we posted at about the same time.  My question now is, since both diagrams are conveniently in the same place, do you see any differences in the allignment in your clock diagram and Shooto8s's diagram, or do they both purport to show the same thing?

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by McDave:


However, I have found in my own practice that I seem to do better if my shoulders end up parallel with the arrow, as I believe is the case with Terry's clock.  I don't think my shoulders ever end up actually pointing at the target, which would result from shooting from a closed position.

Yes.....not 'actually at the target'...but in the same direction and parallel to the arrow.

[Terry Green]

I don't know anything about that diagram, never seen it before.  And as you can see, there are differences.

[SHOOTO8S]

Terry, look and see if your clock photo had been done with a vertical bow, the alignment points wouldn;t have been identical to Al Henderson's drawing ? I've always thought your alignment was perfect.

Pointing the bowshoulder at the target ? No doubt that along with several other methods work. Try this... point your bowshoulder directly at the target...close your eyes, draw the bow, come to anchor, then see where the arrow is pointed? If the arrow is not pointed where you want it to go....you can either change alignment, and bone to bone support or use muscle to move where the arrow is directed.

[jonsimoneau]

Oops, sorry I took so long to get back to this.  Papa, yes I took some lessons from Rick.  He does not try to persuade you to shoot 3 fingers under, although after a lot of testing I found that I do shoot better with 3 fingers under.  Rick can shoot both ways, but says he also shoots better 3 under.  If you live nearby and are having shooting problems, I highly suggest you look him up.  He's a great teacher, and a fun guy.  I guarantee he will teach you some things that will help your shooting.  

Getting proper alignment everytime is sure not something that happens overnight.  I find myself having to work on it alot.  It is easy to get lazy in our shooting form.  Before you know it, you are shooting badly, and wondering what happend?  Video cameras are a great tool to see what it is that you are doing wrong.  Another good thing to watch is Terrys shooting video.  Terry has the best looking form I've ever seen!  Awesome.

[JC]

Originally posted by jonsimoneau:
Video cameras are a great tool to see what it is that you are doing wrong.

 Sho-nuff, the best tool for good archery in my opinion.

Great thread Jon, whole heartedly agree...

[GrayRhino]

Thanks McDave.  This is a very helpful thread, along with the several others about form.

I shoot with my bow held vertically.  Is it possible to get the shoulder alignment shown in Terry's clock, but with a vertical bow?  

I shoot right handed and sometimes get a little string slap on the left side of my chest with a closed stance.

[Terry Green]

By all means Shoot8s....we are all built different, and require a little different positions to achieve a balance alignment to get the bone to bone structure.

I'd have to take an overhead pic shooting vertically to be sure just how I look.  I need to do that.  All I do is bend at the waist for my 'normal' shot....and don't rotate any when I shoot the next arrow with the bow parallel...or vertical, or reverse cant.

Thanks for the compliment....means a lot Sir!

[Terry Green]

GrayRhino,

I hope this comes across right....

Everyone has their 'perfect shot position' for their perfect shot that is the main shot we practice with.  Everything is level, balanced, and wonderful.....

Then we enter the woods, and we aren't guaranteed that perfect shot....the terrain and game dictate, and we must adapt.

Therefore, that's why I always say that form is from the waist up.  If you have the 'magic T', you can take that normal perfect shot with you by bending at the waist for different cant angles, uphill or downhill, or rotating left or right.

So, 'open stance' or 'closed stance' to ME is a personal preference, and a comfortable position for  the 'perfect shot position' that we practice and always wish we could have in the woods.