Some analysis help.

[Otto]

Okay guys....Here's a pic of a typical group for me lately.  And by lately I mean the last 3-4 weeks.  I'm shooting a dozen arrows at a bag in my basement at 24 yds.  The problem I'm having is I always get a couple of fliers that head up and to the right as shown in the pic.  I'm a right handed shooter.  I've checked my arrows and it's not the same 2 or 3 arrows each time.  it's something I'm doing.  Sorry, no video for you guys to look at.  Just need some help on figuring out why this has developed.  Bow is a 50# @ 29 BW PSAX.  Arrows are 30.5 inch 2117's w/125 gr. tips.  These arrows bareshaft dead nuts to POA at 30 yds.  And the arrows haven't changed anyway.  This is something I feel is happening at the shot.

 

Other info.. I shoot with an Alaskan Super Glove, 6'3", 220 Lbs, bald....Any ideas?

[McDave]

Great shooting from 24 yards!

Woodduck had a link to specific reasons you might miss in different directions here:   http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002845;p=1  

The only other thing I would try, if I could shoot that well but had one very specific problem, as you seem to have, would be to have someone videotape me as I shot a number of arrows, and compare the sequences where the error occured with the sequences where it didn't.  I'll bet you could see some difference from the videotape.  If you do that and find out what the problem is, I'm sure we'd love to hear what it turned out to be.

BTW, do you use an aiming method, or do you shoot instinctively?

[Otto]

McDave

Thanks.  Cool...that's a great link.  As for the video camera....that's exactly what I need to do but my stinkin batteries crapped out and at $70 a pop I haven't replaced them yet...and then I found out the wife took the AC adapter and gave it to her IT folks at work, thinking it was the wrong one for her laptop.  Just my luck.

I hate to use the "I" word but that's how I shoot.

[SHOOTO8S]

Otto.....barring form issues, we cant see. 2 things come to mind

A slight relaxation at release or too much third finger pressure.

Are the fliers coming at the beginning of a 12 arrow group and towards the end? Any pattern ?

[Otto]

SHOOTO8S

They seem to come at the beginning more often than not.  It's as if I get them out of my system and the next 9-10 are right where I want them.  The frustrating part is I've not been able to recognize what I'm doing wrong when they occurr.  I do have a healthy callous on my 3rd finger.  I've been fighting a high draw arm elbow lately and I'm not sure why.  Can you explain the possible relationship between the 2 suggestions you mentioned and how they might be causing it?

[Turpentine]

Otto,
I sometimes have this same impact pattern.  I've found that when this happens, I have usually let off pressure with my third finger and am basically shooting with my birdie and index finger.  For some reason my third finger just gets lazy.  I have to concentrate on making sure I hook that finger.  I cant my bow at least 45 degrees and shoot with a medium to high wrist. I also hit high right when my bow arm collapses or if I peek.  Make sure you're pushing with your bow arm. If you shoot high or medium wrist, make sure your wrist doesn't rotate so that the pressure is on the heel instead of between the thumb and index finger, in the web.
Turpentine

[OconeeDan]

Otto, I haven't heard anyone else mention this. And I am no expert.
But I found with my bows about 50 lbs, the 2117 shafts were severely overspined.  Some would fly good (when I did everything right) and some flew bad (when I did something wrong).  The overspined arrows were very sensitive to shooting errors.
Just a thought.
Dan

[McDave]

Dan, I also have a 50# bow where 2117 shafts are somewhat overspined (not severly).  2115 shafts are somewhat underspined, however.  Which of the two do you think would be more sensitive to shooting errors, the slightly overspined or the slightly underspined?

[OconeeDan]

McDave, I think you'll have to just see what shoots best for you.  My bow is actually 47lb at my 27 inches of draw, and it likes 2115 with 150gr up front.  
I am betting the 2115 are much closer than the 2117, and therefore more forgiving.
Seems like 2117 would shoot good in a much heavier bow.
Again, just my own experience.
Dan

[Otto]

Turpentine

Thanks for the tip.  When I shoot later today I'm going to see if what you've suggested is an issue.

OconeeDan.  Others have remarked that a 2117 might be a tad stiff, but at the same time, when they bareshaft dead nuts straight to point of aim at 30 yds, there's not much I can quibble with.  Remember, I do have a 29+ draw, and the arrow is 30.5" long.  I have played around with lesser spine.  2020's have a bit of fishtail in them.  I do have some 150 gr. points that I can play with and see what happens.

Thanks for the tips guys.  If nothing else I may just cough up $70 for a comcorder battery.  Ouch!

[bowdude]

Over the years I have found the most consistant fix when I have problems is going back to the bow arm, and when are you aiming?  (concentrating most on that single spot)
  Looking at that problems page you see that every one has something to do with the bow arm, and none address when to aim, or "concentrate".
  I focus on pushing the bow all the way from my shoulder (keep it tight to make a good base)locking the ebow and pushing with the wrist.  The tighter this group is, the tighter the group is....see.
  But let the mind wander for just a split second when it should be aiming, and all is lost.  I believe Asbel points out, you should already be "aiming" as you are drawing.
  I heard a story about a golf coach talking about concentrating during the swing. That it is surprisingly easy for the mind to wander, and few people can concentrate 100% on one thing for even 3 seconds.  How often do you take a shot and realize you were thinking totally about something else during that shot?  How are those groups?

[Otto]

Bowdude

I took your advice since I last posted this and I believe you are correct.  I found that while I was indeed pushing forward with my bow arm (as evidenced by where 10 of the 12 shots went).  But what I WASN'T doing was really locking in my bow arm at the shoulder and using the shoulder muscles to stabilize my bow arm.  I''ve been focusing on that for the last couple of weeks and it's really made a difference.  

Thanks for your help.