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Author Topic: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming  (Read 5536 times)

Offline X2

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So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« on: March 07, 2007, 04:30:00 PM »
Just watched Instructional shooting video volume 2 by Ricky Welch.  He states that he does not consciously look at or use the tip of the arrow for aiming.  I hear some people say that in order to shoot well you have to have a conscious aiming method.  I have shot against Ricky Welch, and I can say that he is a very good shot and has won many world titles.  Through many years of trial and error I have come up with a very similar method of shooting, and it works extremely well for me.  My point is that there are many ways to do things.  I see a lot of argument of my way is better than yours, or you have to do it this way.  What it all comes down to is, use what works best for you.  Anyone else seen this video, and what do you think?  How do you explain his success given that he doesn't have a conscious aiming method?
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Offline Leland

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 04:38:00 PM »
I agree with the whatever works for you statement.I personally don't care how a person shoots as long as they hit their mark ( not wounding animals).Some people shoot great simply because they have a gift. Leland

Online McDave

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 05:56:00 PM »
"How do you explain his success given that he doesn't have a conscious aiming method?"

The same way a pro quarterback can stand back and throw a football through the hole in a swinging tire.  Doesn't mean we all can do it.  Sometimes when I put three shots one right after the other in the bulls eye, instinctively, I begin to think maybe I know how to do it.  Then the next one goes wild and I can't tell you why.
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Offline pseman

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 08:44:00 PM »
He doesn't use the tip of the arrow to aim the bow but he uses something. It may be hand-eye coordination but if you are shooting at something, bullseye or game, then you are "aiming" in some way or another. I can't understand the idea of "not aiming" at something that I am trying to shoot. I do not look at the tip of my arrow to "aim" my bow at the target, I look at where I want to hit and "aim the bow". But to hit a target you must "aim".
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Offline X2

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 09:06:00 PM »
There is a difference between conscious aiming and sub conscious aiming.  I think that is the big difference that we are talking about.  Everyone aim's it is just the difference of how we do it.  That is what was being discussed.
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Offline Bill Leslie II

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 11:29:00 AM »
I aim pretty much the same way Rick does. I use my instince's to shoot. Yes, way back when I started shooting I was a gap shooter. Through many long hours of practice I lost conscious sight of the arrow. I now no longer look at the arrow while shooting it. **********************
That does not mean that I do not hold the arrow back at full draw for a few seconds. **********
I see so many shooters that snap shoot and say they are shooting instinctive. How can one ever be accurate and never stop moving ? Archery is fairly simple, You just have to do the same thing every time. ( Oh so hard to do !) How can you do the same thing evrey time if you never stop moving ?

 I am not qualified to tell anybody anything, this is just my opinion.


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Offline bayoulongbowman

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 09:25:00 PM »
Rick Welch runs a shooting clinc now and gives check points to use on part of ur face , where the arrow feather  touches...etc. ...
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Offline Kingstaken

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 11:12:00 PM »
"JUST NOCK, DRAW AND BE RELEASED"

Offline tamure

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2007, 11:59:00 AM »
I think I saw the first video, I can't remember which one it was exactly. I seem to remember it advocating gap shooting as a good way to get started. Or maybe I'm mixing up videos?  :confused:

I think a person can be equally successful either way, after the basic skills of archery have been mastered. (By that I mean that the archer has developed enough skill that matters of poor or inconsistent form are no longer a significant variable.) However, I think mostly it is just a matter of how we imprecisely describe experience with words. We're all obviously conscious of our shooting / aiming to some degree.  

I'm sure I'll get lots of criticism for this, but I personally don't believe there is any such thing as "instinctive" shooting. Even if he never mentally calculated gaps or leads, the pro quarterback has practiced long hours, probably every day for years, to throw that ball through the swinging tire. Similarly, I think unconscious aiming is a product of conscious aiming performed somewhere along the learning curve while the archer was developing the basics of form. It didn't "just happen."

When you think about it, aiming is the easy part. Keeping back tension, follow through, smooth release, etc., all of these are hard to do consistently. I submit that a person's method of aiming is developed far earlier in the learning curve than the other aspects of shooting. By the time those aspects of form are consistent, aiming has probably already become consistent and second nature, "unconscious" or "instinctive," as you will.

I think when an archer has developed to that point, he or she, whether realizing it or not, has done a lot of unconscious aiming while focusing on aspects of form. Now the body has things sorted out enough that the mind is free to concentrate on other things. You can choose what those things are - aiming or something else. What you choose probably has more to do with you personally, physically or psychologically, rather than any supposed "best" method. For example, someone shooting a light bow with a short draw length may choose to focus instead on back tension, because of the dramatic decrease in power if they creep forward (but I wouldn't know anything about that...  ;)  ) If it leads to consistently higher success, that is the best method for that person. Again, it goes back to what works for the individual, and that choice may have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else's experience. A large part of the debate I think comes from the (mis?)conception that people are sufficiently similar that the same method will work for almost everyone. Also, everyone is in a different stage of learning. Some are beginning, some are very advanced. A person's needs change as they progress along the learning curve.

The really good archers who do not consciously aim I think are successful because they have practiced so much that aiming is completely second nature, and in most circumstances, there's no need to use mental energy on it. Thus they are free to focus on other things - form aspects maybe, or mentally drilling a hole in the spot (is that "conscious aiming?"). They are just as free to focus on aiming, even though they may not have to from a technical point of view.
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Offline Kingstaken

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2007, 12:59:00 PM »
Interesting. In all sincereity I love the responses on this board. One thing I can say, the guys/gals here difinetly make ya think. Nothing less than brilliant minds here.  :readit:  

Instinct as to be my understanding is something learnered either by evolution and or by practice. Done without hesitation and not to be confused by a reflex.

You can consciouly aim all you want if your bow hand does not raise and if your draw arm does not draw you cannot shoot.
The word "Instinctive" at least to me puts all the necessary things required to accomplish a shot.

Noting that the mind does control all we do, have monkies consciously learned how to swing from trees to escape an attaching lion or consciously put a stick on a termite hold to collect food? It all skills they learned to build instincts. Until we can move objects by use of telekenetics where only our minds are in use, I shall term the way atleast I shoot to be instinctively and anything else not done by reflex.

Noting that all individuals are created equal yet physically and menatlly different, how long might you think it would take lets say an 8 year old shooting a 15# recurve and a 40 year old shooting a 65# longbow to develope the skills to shoot instinctively at say 8 yards?  Let me rephase that to shoot via consciously aiming?  Il'll even call it snap shooting for a better term. But wait snap shooting, isnt that to fast to be called consciouly aiming, has arcehry become a reflex?  :bigsmyl:  

One thing I can say, the guys/gals here difinetly make ya think. Nothing less than brilliant minds here.  Wish we all could sit around a fire, a very big fire and exchange thoughts and ideas. I don't know where it would lead, but would be lots of fun watching deer go by and saying how one would attack the situation.
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Online McDave

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 01:25:00 PM »
I think it would help if we agree on a definition of instinctive shooting.  I don't think any instinctive shooters believe they are using the "force" from Star Wars, or some innate sense they were born with like being able to touch, see, smell, etc.  I think everyone would agree that instinctive shooting is learned; otherwise, the use of a bow would go all the way back to the beginning of human beings and not just 10,000 years or so.

For me, instinctive shooting means shooting a bow and arrow without using any part of the bow or arrow as a point of reference in determining where to aim.  So my definition would include Howard Hill's method of shooting, which was to focus on the target but also be aware of the arrow in his peripheral vision, since his awareness of the arrow did not include using it as an aiming device.

My definition would not include gap shooting, since the arrow is used as an aiming device.

People may say that Howard Hill probably used his arrow as an aiming device, or that all the rest of us use some aiming device, whether we are aware of it or not.  I have tested this, to a degree, by cutting out little pieces of cardboard that I have taped to the bottom of my eyeglasses such that the only thing I can see when I shoot is the target.  Others have tested it by shooting in a dark room with only a spot on the target illuminated.  I can assure you that it is possible to shoot without using the arrow or the bow as an aiming device, whether they are present in our peripheral vision or not.
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Offline tamure

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 03:59:00 PM »
McDave, the shooting with the "blinders" is interesting. How were your results? Were you able to group arrows? How well did you shoot, compared to your "normal" shooting?

It seems to me that a completely dark room would be necessary to really block out the awareness of the arrow, the bow, the knuckle, etc.

Usually I do consciously aim, so I figure I would just compensate by using some other point of reference if I couldn't see the arrow point. I will have to try this. I'll post pics if I put any holes in the wall.  :D
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Offline Kingstaken

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 04:01:00 PM »
:thumbsup:
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Online McDave

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 04:31:00 PM »
"McDave, the shooting with the "blinders" is interesting. How were your results? Were you able to group arrows? How well did you shoot, compared to your "normal" shooting?"

Actually, if I just let myself focus on the target, and try not to be aware of the cardboard, I found that I could shoot and group okay.  Maybe not as well as usual, but then I usually don't shoot that way.  Probably if I really wanted to make a point, I could get better if I always shot with the bow and arrow blocked out, but I really didn't feel like making a habit out of it.
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Offline NDTerminator

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 04:56:00 PM »
To be dead honest I don't know what style I shoot.  I guess if I had to label it, it would be "Instincti-Gap" or something like that.  I don't consciously gap shoot or aim, but I don't release as soon as I hit full draw like an instinctive shooter does.

I'm not consciously aware of my arrow point in relation to the target, I'm just looking at where I want to hit.  Before I draw I bring my bow hand roughly to the level my brain says is needed to hit the target.  As I achieve full draw, my bow hand adjusts as my eyes and brain tell it without actually thinking about it.  I hold for about 2-4 seconds as I focus on my spot and release when it feels right.

When I first started out I consciously gap shot, but over time the deliberate thought process involved has faded away, leaving me neither fish nor fowl as far as a specific style goes...
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Offline Shakes.602

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2007, 05:07:00 PM »
"A BowLazer for Low Light Conditions" if there isnt one Made already, it wont take them Long.

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Offline RKing

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2007, 07:02:00 PM »
Interisting discussion,confusing but interesting!
I shoot at night often and seem to shoot better when I can't see the bow/arrow or other stuff to take my mind off the target.I also do not release as soon as I hit anchor.I can shoot that way but am more inconsistent than if I "hold" at anchor.I hesitate to say hold because I use that time to refine my target focus and push/pull. If I hold (like to have someone check my form@ full draw) Istart to shake and lose focus. When I push the bow to the target I can remain @ full draw quite a long time without shaking. I shoot a 60#@30 recurve drawn to 30" and a 54# longbow and this seems the same with either.Unlike a lot of shooters I did't shoot compounds much and find that I still use a form wery simular to high school (30 years ago).
Sorry to ramble but who else shoots better in the dark and "holds" @ full draw? I know I don't gap cause I tried .Got tired of hunting for arrers:)
It took my focus off the target and bad things happen then.I really don't know how I aim but I know I do cause I miss when I don't:)
Try it ,try something shiney to reflect a fashlight beam @15 to 20 yards and see what happens,be confident!

Offline X2

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2007, 08:18:00 PM »
I have no problem shooting at night.  I dont think I shoot any better, about the same.  You may be shooting better at night because you are able to focus on the target better.  
I also hold at draw for about 2-3 seconds.  Concentrate on the spot I want to hit use good form and execute the shot.
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Offline RKing

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2007, 09:38:00 PM »
I agree ,I'm easily distracted!! can't see the pretty birds,butterflys,ect.

Offline Terry Green

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Re: So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2007, 10:32:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Leslie II:
 How can one ever be accurate and never stop moving ? Archery is fairly simple, You just have to do the same thing every time. ( Oh so hard to do !) How can you do the same thing evrey time if you never stop moving ?
    Bill
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