how do the best shots shoot?

[zetabow]

Originally posted by ishoot4thrills:
The main thing is that, if you hunt with trad gear, you owe it to the quarry you're pursuing, to shoot accurately and consistently. If you can't do that by shooting totally "instinctive", then I believe you should search for a better way to aim your arrow so you can hit your mark in a more consistent way.

If you don't hunt, then don't worry about it.

Yep I agree but when tourney shooting I think the same applies as you should also consider your ability for other Archers safety.

A few years back I had a relative novice shooting a borrowed 60# unsighted Compound, he was spraying arrows everywhere but the target, one shot went throught safety net like knife through butter, after 6 targets I stopped him shooting and asked officials to take charge of him.

Everybody misses targets but if you're missing more that you hit you need to stay away from tourneys till you've mastered your form a little better.

[Rob DiStefano]

just goes to show ya there is a HUGE difference between fixed distance target archery and hunting.  

entirely two different animals.  

if yer a bowhunter, everything about your archery should be aimed towards real life hunting and not paper punching.

the only archery events i bother attending are those with unknown distances.  that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.  better yet if the yardage is kept under 35/40, to truly simulate hunting.

amazing that so many decades later, the nfaa, which started out as a roving/training organization for bowhunters, has become so target oriented.

[zetabow]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
just goes to show ya there is a HUGE difference between fixed distance target archery and hunting.  

the only archery events i bother attending are those with unknown distances.  that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.  

Think it all depends on your background, I started out shooting instinctively at unmarked rounds and when I began shooting IFAA marked Field rounds I just added Split-vision\\gap and POA to my aiming on top of instinct.

I never lost my unmarked skills and shoot equally well at international marked Field and unmarked 3D tourneys, if anything I think the marked field rounds helped me shoot unmarked 3D better as more discipline is required to shoot 4 arrows at each Field target.

I've seen more than my share of Bowhunters shoot poorly at unmarked 3D tourneys then tell me shooting at fur makes them suddenly shoot better, the truth is good form and well learned\\practiced aiming system (instinct or otherwise) equates to consistent, accurate shooting in any arena.

[BigCnyn]

I disagree With you Rob.

"if yer a bow hunter, everything about your archery should be aimed towards real life hunting and not paper punching."

I bow hunt as well, and I use the "Paper Punching" to fine  tune my SHOT,to a razors edge.  I can then trust my SHOT to work flawlessly, when I am burning the hole.
I have titles and animals on the wall.. Which are more important to me? Neither, they both are the result of lots and lots of work, and enjoyment. I took the animals with stealth and diligence, one shot,,(So far) the trophies and titles, The time and energy expended to focus that shot to become that Champion for the year.The 3-d is a chance to see Similated hunting, ( some shots are just wrong,) but, we shoot them as the way they are set-up, the scores let you evaluate YOURSELF with a number. Set a goal, or shoot hit, miss, wound. What is your ethical number? 75%-90% kill shots. you look in the mirror.

Do I miss, heck ya, do I make a bad shot on paper, heck ya! Do I make a bad shot at 3-d, Heck ya but, that's why I play the game. To Some day not make that one bad shot, and in the process, have a blast doing it.

I shot Instinctively for years, I shoot with all sorts of methods now, shoot whats needed, and Be True to Yourself that you have worked and KNOW that it can be done..

I had a friend ask me once , " Are ya Hoping or Knowing? when you shoot your shots.."

Are you? (everybody)

I see guys using Instinctive as a crutch,, They don't shoot worth a damn, and say "instinctive" like a ally ally ox in free,, learn to shoot and practice, but don't blame the way you shoot as the reason to hit or miss.. You brought it, You Shoot it.!

I know where my arrow is going..

[Rob DiStefano]

i hear talkin' ya bigcnyn.  i was a devout target archer for over 2 decades (60's and 70's, recurve fingers and compound release), and all my targeteering ain't had much at all to do with my hunting.  just two different animals, pun intended.  doesn't at all mean one should disregard consistency and accuracy.  perhaps to each their own, and that's cool, too.

[BigCnyn]

But what you are telling others is .. ALL that experience you have had before in shooting has not helped you in hunting? and I beg to differ, you gained TONS from it. Whether you can feel it, see it , or not.. So that maybe is what others are missing. We are a Society of I want it Now, Scores Trophies, whatever, and not have to work for it.. that's my point.

[Rob DiStefano]

i dunno brian, maybe yer taking my typing somewhat out of context.  there's archery and then there's bowhunting.  of course there's a definite correlation.  but surely there can differences in venue, weather, attire, acquiring a target, form, gear, etc.  

add into the mix how realistically well you can shoot with consistency and accuracy - not the years you've had behind the stick 'n' string, that can mean total squat.  i truly believe that if yer serious about bowhunting, be honest with yer shooting and rove with yer hunting tackle.  look at the reasons why redlands was formed - now look at the nfaa, yeesh.

sucking yer way through a georgia swamp, wet, tired, bugs up yer nose, crouched behind a rotten stump, drawing, aiming on a piggie 13 yards away broadside whilst squinting through the foliage for a clean release and arrow flight - that ain't got much to do with yer typical archery event ... though some, like the muzzy can sure take it to the next level for a bowhunter.

as always, ymmv - and that's cool by me!

   

[zetabow]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:


that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.

Rob considering your were a tourney shooter and the way you talk about tourney shooting now, you sound like an ex smoker I used to know.    :rolleyes:

shoot straight    :D

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by zetabow:
 

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:


that sure humbles the targeteers with their gap-point-sight-whatever aiming systems, and levels the playing field.

Rob considering your were a tourney shooter and the way you talk about tourney shooting now, you sound like an ex smoker I used to know.     :rolleyes:  

shoot straight     :D  [/b]

like i've already said, stephen - punchin' paper and killin' critters are two different animals.  

got nothing at all against targeteers, they is what they is.  heck, i'm still one of 'em!  and i can still pull string and hold my own with the AAA shooters in my town if need be.  however, my approach to the target game is MUCH different than my approach to the killing game.  

as always, ymmv.     :D

[foamkiller]

Wow do you think there is anyone out there that can shoot targets well and kill animals? Since Mr Hill has passed I doubt it.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by foamkiller:
Wow do you think there is anyone out there that can shoot targets well and kill animals? Since Mr Hill has passed I doubt it.

absolutely.  mr hill was a celebrity, and there are any number of archer-hunters who aren't celebs that are in every right as good, if not better, than he.

[foamkiller]

Sorry Rob but I couldn't resist saying that....BTW I had my tongue so far in my cheek I bit it. LOL! I mean no disrespect to the great archers of the past but some people need to realize that there are some awesome shooters out there today.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by foamkiller:
Sorry Rob but I couldn't resist saying that....BTW I had my tongue so far in my cheek I bit it. LOL! I mean no disrespect to the great archers of the past but some people need to realize that there are some awesome shooters out there today.

:D   right on, dan!

[cbushee]

Regarding to what many people said about doing what makes you best. If using POA or gap makes you best and you think you should use it then use it. The recurve can have slightly better performance than the longbow than use it. The compound can have better performance than the recurve then use it. The rifle can have better performance than use it. The finely tuned target rifles can have better performance than use it. With the "if its better than use it" mentality where do you stop? Wouldn't you just go to the pinnacle of technology and use it? Traditional archery is about having fun and keeping it simple. That's why we shoot bare bow and we don't use compounds. It's not about maximizing your accuracy because if it was then this forum wouldn't exist. It would be about the brand new rifle with it's unparalleled performance.

[Lazy Ike]

I was at the Eastern sports outdoor show a few years ago and there was this guy giving a talk about hunting adventures. He was pretty interesting. Someone asked him what kind of shooting he did to prepare for hunting. He said he shot regular bullseye targets. Said he just pictured the gold right in the middle of the vitals and tried to put the arrow in it.I doubt if any of us could match his bowhunting success. Oh.... His name......


Chuck Adams

[Lazy Ike]

By the way , Bobby Jones was better than Tiger Woods and Howard Hill was the best longbow archer that ever lived.IMHO


Ike

[Earthdog]

I shoot Spilit vision and instinctive.
I belive very few people shoot gap in the manner described by people like Rod Jenkins.
I do very well in local competitions because I don't get very involved with aiming methods,I just know what works for me and I do it.
I use bino's on targets when their allowed,their not for helping with range estimation,their so I know exactly where the 20 ring is.
Knowing exactly where it is helps me a lot in picking my spot,,,guessing where it is doesn't.
I've spoken to hundreds of die hard instinctive shooters over the years,,,they all seemed to be more interested in the process,rather than the end result,,,,I've never understood that.
I've had them try the old "hunting" line on me,,,until they find my hunting success rate is very good.
That old hunting/target thing goes both ways,its not just good target shooters that can be very poor shots on game.
I've been both a hunter/target shooter for over 30 years and I think I've seen it all as far as missing animals is concerned,and the aiming method has "nothing" to do with it.
In fact I personaly belive aiming,weather it be instinctive,split vision or gap,,is one of the lest important elements of any experienced archers form,,,yet perople still make a huge deal about it.
I say that because I personaly don't think about aiming at all,everything I do revolves around executing the actual shot well,aiming just looks after it's self,as it should,I've done it a million times at every distance I can shoot at.
About the only concession to aiming I'll even consider is that pure instinctive works very well at short ranges,while split vision works over all ranges,,,,,,just like Howard Hill said so many years ago,an I ain't arguing with Mr Hill.

[zetabow]

Very good post Earthdog, I've found this in recent years, maintaining aiming skills is the easiest part of shooting and good repeatable shot sequence is the most difficult part of shooting and needs the most work.

Yesterday I did a tourney with a different Bow, it shoots quite different from my normal Bow and had no time to zone in because I was setting targets and stakes, the first 10 shots was quite difficult because my focus was very much on synchronizing sight picture with where I wanted arrow to go on the target, the result was my focus was too much on aiming and my form suffered a little but once I got my sight picture right I could just let the aiming take care of itself and my focus was on solid shot execution, that's when I started to really nail everything.

It was a good reminder and clarification on how my mental process works best for me.    

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by cbushee:
Regarding to what many people said about doing what makes you best. If using POA or gap makes you best and you think you should use it then use it. The recurve can have slightly better performance than the longbow than use it. The compound can have better performance than the recurve then use it. The rifle can have better performance than use it. The finely tuned target rifles can have better performance than use it. With the "if its better than use it" mentality where do you stop? Wouldn't you just go to the pinnacle of technology and use it? Traditional archery is about having fun and keeping it simple. That's why we shoot bare bow and we don't use compounds. It's not about maximizing your accuracy because if it was then this forum wouldn't exist. It would be about the brand new rifle with it's unparalleled performance.

I get what you're trying to say, but what's wrong with "maximizing your accuracy"? Is it not every shooter's goal to be the best that they can be with the weapon of their choice, be it rifle, shotgun, or a stick and a string?

If it's a trad bow, it doesn't matter matter how you aim or shoot, just as long as you shoot good enough to please yourself. Regardless of your method of aiming, you still have to practice regularly to hone your skills to a satisfactory level for yourself, and to maximize your skills to the highest level if you choose to hunt. I, myself, chose to try something different than "totally instinctive" when my results were less than satisfactory, both for myself and for the animals I hunt.

Oh, and by the way, I still enjoy deer hunting with a shotgun loaded with slugs shot through a standard single beaded "bird barrel" during modern rifle season. Not because it's so much "better", but because I still enjoy hearing the gun go off and the excitement of the first day of gun season. (Maybe I should take the bead off of the barrel because it's too much like aiming, after all it is a "bird" gun designed for pointing instead of aiming. I wouldn't want to "maximize my accuracy") But, I also take my longbow instead sometimes. So, I guess, "that's where I stop" is with the shotgun.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I agree with ishoot4thrills. For me, it’s about being the best shot that I can be while using the equipment that I enjoy; nothing more, nothing less. There are many different ways of shooting barebow. I’ve string-walked, shot point-of-aim, gap, split vision, and instinctive. Eventually I settled on one method that works best for me on paper, 3D, and bowhunting.

Just because someone is a good paper-puncher doesn’t mean they aren’t proficient on animals anymore than good bowhunters are lousy on targets. No, bowhunting isn’t target archery, but the two disciplines are far from mutually exclusive.

I spend a lot of time at a local indoor range shooting groups into little circle targets. In the summer, I’m usually shooting into paper targets outdoors on a field course. Judging by the contents of my freezer, I’d say being a paper-puncher hasn’t exactly handicapped me when it comes to killing wild game. It hasn’t messed up my unmarked yardage 3D shooting either.

If anyone thinks being an instinctive archer isn’t conducive to winning target rounds, I can name at least two members of this forum who’s trophy rooms would prove otherwise. And if anyone thinks being a gap or point-of-aim archer is a handicap to bowhunting, I can name a few such people with more money in taxidermy than I paid for my truck.

The bottom line is this: what works for one person may not work for someone else. Find what works for you and do it. Just don’t confuse your individual experiences for a universal truth.