Help me understand Asbell's TBM arcticle

[BobCo 1965]

The article was on :The Drawing Hand". On page 48 Fred gets into "Hand Angle".

Personally I usually practice keeping the back of the hand pretty much parallel to the string at whatever cant I am shooting at. However, Fred mentioned that he personally uses and prefers an angle (35-45 degrees)which he feel comfortable  with when putting his hand straight out. He feels that this is the correct angle for his drawing hand on the string. See below picture:
   http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/BobCo/101_0254.jpg  

Now picture this hand angle with a decent cant on the bow. I'm just trying to imagine how a split finger shooter could get the string across each of the three joints using split fingers. Personally, I'f I'm canting the bow my hand position would pretty much be the opposite of what Fred is showing.

I'm confused.

[Hogtamer]

Bob, Fred's approach is all about letting the computer(brain) point the bow hand according to what it has done many times before.  Imagine we walk up to each other to shake hands....which is the "natural" position of the hand?  So why not grip the bow "naturally"?  The cant is built in so to speak and requires no further thought.  Pointing the hand from this postion using his swing-arm drawallows one total focus on the target spot without interference from the limbs or riser.

[Molson]

Fred is talking about the wrist angle and keeping tension out of the back of the hand and forearm.

Think about how you reach for something, like say, a cup of coffee.  You don't turn your hand 90 degrees to the table.  Your hand/forearm has a natural, relaxed cant to it and your fingers wrap around the cup when you pick it up. Even though the cup may be narrow on the bottom, your fingers adjust automatically.

When you cant the bow, your form cants with it, not just the bow and your drawing fingers. Since everything moves together, there's no difference.

[BobCo 1965]

I completely understand what you are saying. But, personally, as the hand position shows in Fred's picture, I would be holding my bow in a negative cant position. Not saying I'm doing it right or wrong. Just wondering if others people angle their hand the same as Fred. Another thing I would add is that we have to assume what the bow position would be in Fred's picture.

I'm not a Fred basher by any means, just a little confused.

Below is a pic of my hand position with a slight bow cant. Keep in mind that it was a little tough holding this position and taking the picture, but its about right. The camera angle may be a little obsure as can be seen from the large size of the index finger to other fingers.  Back of the hand is about parallel to the string and the string crosses the fingers perpendicular. The string runs across the first joint of each finger.
   http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/BobCo/101_0255.jpg
This picture shows the string position across the fingers using hand angle method as far as I can interpret it as Fred's article. Personally, I have a lot more tension in my hand mainly caused from the fingers:
   http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/BobCo/101_0256.jpg

Personally, I find I can turn my hand angle in many positions without tension in my wrist or back of hand. The coffee cup example is fine, but there are many other example as well, and it really depends on what you are reaching for. For example, I just pulled out the shelf that houses my keyboard under my desk (palms up). Did it a few times and didn't find any more tension from hand angle then I would pick up a coffee up.

In the second picture, I would personally have a hard time hooking the string as I would a paint can without tension.

[Peachey]

I angle my hand as you are showing in the top picture everytime or at least try too. The bow, my hand and the side of my face where I anchor are all on the same angle.

[McDave]

I'm interested in this also.  I'll have to go back and re-read the article.  I always thought that if I didn't keep the back of my hand parallel to the string, I would risk torqueing the bow.  I don't know if Fred follows this forum or not, but it would be interesting if he would chime in on this.

[Molson]

The photo is just an illustration.  The text reads, "For years I tried to keep the back of my hand exactly vertical on the string (and that may work for some people), but experience has shown that a natural angle on the back of the hand works best for me..."

That's pretty much the only point Fred was trying to make.  Keep the angle natural and don't force it.

[BobCo 1965]

Yes the photo is a good illustration. And I totally agree with you about not forcing the angle Molson.

Also quoting,

"For me, when I'm reaching for something (see photo) , my hand is at about a 35-45 degree angle. That seems to be the correct and natural angle for my drawing hand on the string".

I guess what catches my eye is that the hand angle he illustrates is almost the opposite of mine (see above pictures, we are both right handed) which is what lead to my confusion. Especially on how my string fingers would be aligned on the string if using his hand angle.

My natural angle pulling a bow string seems to be more of a palm up and his is more palm down.

If you look at my bottom picture when trying to use Fred's angle, my wrist maybe still relaxed, but my bottom two fingers (especially ring finger)are reaching for the string which is putting tension into the equation. The string angle across the three fingers sure doesn't seem right.


Molsen, If I'm reading your opinion correctly on what you got from this section of the article it is to basically  use whatever hand angle that works for you individually which causes the least amount of tension in the hand. Correct?

[Molson]

Bob,  Yes that's what I got out of it.

I agree with you on the photo being a little confusing.  It threw me off at first too, but then I realized it was just a pose to make a point.  

I think you might be reading into it a little.  What I mean is, if you were to draw your bow with your hand in line with the string, and your bow straight up and down, your palm would face the left.  Now if you cant the bow and draw in line, your palm is no longer facing directly left, it is facing more upward.  How far upward depends on the amount of cant.  What Fred is suggesting works the same way. Where Fred might start out with his palm facing a little more down than yours, as the bow cants, his palm would move just like yours. It would just end up facing a little less upward than yours at the same degree of cant.

[McDave]

I hesitate to say this, in that I've read everything Fred has published, and have attended seminars he has lead, and have tried to model his style of shooting.  However...., if he draws the bow with his hand facing at an angle downward from the string, it would seem natural that he would have problems with the arrow sliding off the rest.  I tried that tonight, and that's exactly what happened.

[Shakes.602]

Just Always Keep in Mind: Learn the Good Habits, and You WILL end up with a Good Shooting Style that is ALL Your Own!!    
               Good Luck to You!
               NEVER GIVE UP!!  

[nine]

I also have been confused with F.Asbell  hand position.
 more especially that in his Instinctive shooting n° 2 he explains the opposite, specifying that the hand must have the same angle ( parallel )  the string because the opposite would twist the string with the consequence which one easily imagines on arrow fly………
Years ago I started trad shooting with only one help : F Asbell books and videos, and I must say that without this help I will certainly have discouraged myself. Thank you  Mr Asbell.
 But it is conceivable that after 2 books and Videos one ( even the best )can always find something to write on same subject many time a year, years after years ?  

[jhansen]

I won't claim to be Fred Asbell or to know more than he does.  On the other hand, I will say that some of what he advocates just doesn't work for me.  Having said all that, let me make one observation.  Mr. Asbell bends quite a lot from the waist when he shoots.  Draw a line down the length of his bow and down the length of his body at full draw.  Now imagine him standing up straight.  He hardly cants his bow at all relative to his body.  This may explain how he can advocate the hand position he talks about in his recent article.

JMHO,
John

[Bard1]

I am not the kind of guy that does well with abstracts.  I have to try it and see. So I did.  I tried out his string holding method.  I have to say that I felt my hand was more relaxed.  What I found interesting though is before this holding style if I missed left/right it was usually to the left.  Now with this holding method I miss to the right.  Not all the time mind you.  I am still playing with it, but I thinking that if I am to angled it torks the bow.  It maybe that one has to find just the right amount of angle.  I'll test it some more tonight and see what I come up with.
Derek

[vermontrad]

Just my own observation here. Seems that some of us naturally have more range of motion than others. Where my forearm will only rotate my hand 140 degrees or so without employing shoulder rotation. A friend of mine can rotate their hand 180 degrees. I find it difficult to keep my hand truly inline with the string without straining, the grooves in my gloves say I keep it about ten degrees off, palm down. just feels more natural. We all have different tolerances and we need to be aware of them and work with them to find our own way. Doesn't matter what anyone says works for them, try it all for yourself and find what works for you.

[Bard1]

well after several weeks of shooting as asbell recomended or more corectly, my interpretation of his writing about string hand angle, I like it.  My left to right misses were more about me flinching then the hand it'self.  My releases are much smoother, I am more relaxed, and I am shooting well even out to 40 yards.  It works for me.  Thanks Fred!
Derek

[Orion]

I haven't tried it yet, but it seems from the description that the drawing hand would actually end up more toward perpendicular to the string on a canted bow rather than parallel with it, which would lead to torquing the string.  Maybe enough folks will forward the question such that he will clarify in the next issue.

[joebuck]

The least amount of finger contact on the serving will give you better arrow flight hence more accurate. If you shoot split, then keep your index finger barely on the string. Let your middle finger do 60% of the pulling with ring finger 30% and index 10%. if your grab that string with a three finger hook, you will torque the string and cause bad arrow flight. The straighter you can keep your string from tip to tip at full draw, the better the flight.You may not notice it but at full draw , your string is not totally straight in your string grip...does this make sense?  good luck

[va]

i read the article in question and tried it with my first (poorly built) self-bow.  When I actually did it like the author described, my hand and forearm were very relaxed and that seemed to make for a smoother release.  I am definitely a Beginner with a capital B.  Sure is fun though.

[KSdan]

joebuck- that works for me too-index very relaxed with very little.  Sometimes I even moe it slightly touching my nose-gives me another anchor of sorts.