BARESHAFT TUNING QUESTION

[flatlander37]

I decided to try some carbons again and am tuning them.  This is my setup: Black Widow MAII 56# @26 inches(my DL).  CX Rebel Hunter 29" long with aluminum adapters and 200 grain point weights.

At about 15 yards my unfletched arrows group about 3-4" left of intended target and fletched ones group 3-4" right of target.  If I pretend I know what I am doing I would think I need to add more weight up front because the shaft is still too stiff.  Am I right or all screwed up?!

Any and all help appreciated.  Thanks, Mark  

[drewsbow]

yep you are right provided you are right handed :0)  Drew

[JRY309]

It sounds like you are alittle stiff also if you are RH.What spine of CX Rebel Hunters are you shooting?

[Steertalker]

If your are right handed, it sounds to me that you are WAY over spined.  Like.....not even the right shaft.  I would go to the next smaller shaft.

[The Whittler]

I think Steertalker has it. Maybe you should of left the shaft full length. Alan

[Van/TX]

If you are shooting right of target with fletched shafts then what is going to happen if you add point weight?  Are the arrows going straight or do you just have an aiming issue?  Gosh, I'll never understand this carbon tuning stuff    ...Van

[Bjorn]

If you are otherwise getting good flight-no porpoising and excessive acrobatics, and your arrow is landing reasonably straight, then in my humble opinion you're ready to fletch. Now watch me get admonished here! LOL!
Nock left for a rightie indicates weak spine. But if that's your only problem I personally would go ahead and fletch.
OL Adcock has a great tuning section on his site.

[katman]

Sounds like you are overspined as mentioned earlier, either start with the arrow full length or drop down a spine level. You have to add A LOT of weight to the point to effect carbon spine but small changes in length (1/4-1/2") make a BIG difference.

nock left is weak, the bare shaft arrow will also be grouping right of the fletched for a right hander.

Good advice to follow OL's bow tunning, great information that explains it well,  http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm

[flatlander37]

I am shooting the 45/60's in the Rebel Hunter.  What do you guys think if I added the 100 grain brass adapters and went from there.  Or should I just invest in some CX 100's and start all over?

[drewsbow]

I would go with the brass inserts , cheaper and I personally like a high front weight. Drew

[Steertalker]

Mark,

Assuming that you are doing everything correctly, holding the bow verical and your form is rock solid repeatable and predictable, then I don't think adding more weight up front is going to help you much.  It'll help some but not enough.  

Now...there is one thing you might try before you go and buy different shafts. As mentioned earlier. Add the extra weight of front and see what happens.  If they are still shooting stiff then place a small match stick or similar object shaved down to about 1/32-1/16 inch thick behind the side plate where the arrow comes in contact.  This will in effect weaken the spine even more.

It just sounds to me that a 6-8 inch deflection between the fletched and unfletched is a lot.  Also if you have some uncut shafts, try those as someone has already mentioned.  

Hope this all makes sense and helps.

[flatlander37]

Thanks for the help so far guys.  I will shoot some more in a little while before work.  The strange thing is that yesterday at about 12/13 yards I got all six arrows in a 5 inch circle.  I am wondering if I was just getting fatigued at the end of the day or if my real problems just started showing up at the longer yardages.
My arrows are already about 565 grains because these new huunters are "weight forward" with a camo wrap on the outside.  If I utilize the 100 grain inserts that will push me between 650-700 grains for a complete arrow.  I didn't want to go that heavy, but we'll see what happens.  Thanks again for all your help.

[Shawn Leonard]

I believe just the opposite what everyone else said. The deflection is like .600 or so on those shafts. I think you are getting an opposite reaction and they are a bit weak. I would drop point weight down to about 150-160 and see what happens. I know someone shooting the CX 150s out of your same set-up and draw length and they are shooitng 29" arrow and 225 up front for great flight and perfect bareshaft results and that 150 is quite a bit stiffer than your shaft. Also make sure the guys you are getting advice from actually have shot these shafts and are not just basing it on what they "think" is correct. Shawn

[Steertalker]

Mark,

Shawn could be right.  I should have read all the posts and I would have seen your second post.  A 45/60 carbon should shoot out of your setup.  I do not have experience with the specific carbons that you mentioned but Shawn is right about getting the opposite reaction.  I have had that happen to me.  My experience is with Easton Axis ST's and Carbon Tech shafts and when you have them cut WAY wrong or are way off in spine you can get opposite spine indications.  It isn't until you are getting close that things start working like they are suppose to.

Also....I think 15 yds is too close to be bare shaft testing.  I would recommend a minimum distance of 25 yds to get good results.

[Van/TX]

As Shawn said and what I was getting at.  You are underspined or need to tune the bow unless you have an aiming issue that's causing your arrows to hit right of the target...Van

[Shawn Leonard]

I should also say thatonce ya hit that deflection of .500 or so it seem that ya can add lots of point weight and still get good flight. For example with my Heritage 150s I can shoot point weight from 150 all the way to 250 and get great flight, they bareshaft weak with the heavy tip weight but fletched there is no wiggle or wobble, but for some reason with the .600 or so ya can not get away with that, as I think they are not stiff(noodle like) enough to recover from paradox that quickly with all that weight up front. Shawn

[Steve Kendrot]

I haven't shot carbons much, but I've been doing a lot of bare shafting with aluminums and have found that distances less than 15 yards can be misleading. Several times, I've had fletched and unfletched grouping together at 14-15 yards only to have wild flights at 20. A lot happens between 15 and 20 yards and further.

[flatlander37]

Alright guys, saying that it is too weak a spine at 29", and that I also should move my distance to 20 yards or better, what is the best step tp take next?
Do I cut the shafts down a 1/2", 1" or what to start?  I tried some 145 grain heads today but it was hard to tell in the wind.  I think they made a difference so I think that increasing spine is probably where to go.  Just how much how fast is the answer.  I know alot of people say that carbone reacts more to how much you take off.
Any comments or ideas?

[Shawn Leonard]

I would take a whole 1" off of a coupkle and see what happens. I believe that will put ya about perfect. If ya draw only 26"s, if it still acts weak start taking down by a 1/2", but I believe that the 1" will really help. Distance should not matter all t5hat much, I bareshaft at about 12 yards and have had great results. The problem with bareshafting at 20 yards and more is that 95% of the guys that shoot trad are not accurate enough to do it. I know I will here a bunch of crap on that but I have listened to a ton of guys say how well they shoot and than gone to a shoot with 20 of them and maybe 2 shot as well as they claim. A guy who can keep them all in a 4" circle at 20 yards is indeed one of the best out there, not 3 out of 4 or 4 out of 5 but them, all. Shawn

[flatlander37]

I cut down the carbons again this morning, and nothing has seemed to help.  These things don't group consistently at all.  I marked the arrows by number and the same ones group to the left and right no matter what I do, fletched and unfletched.  Is it possible to get a bad batch of carbons?  I know very well that I could be havinga very bad couple of days shooting also, so I switched to some of my cedars and at least got consistent groups at 25 yards.  I'm far from Robin Hood, but it did make a huge difference.  I'm now so frustrated that I don't know what to do.