What is a good MOA for a recurve?

[Doublegun]

Getting back into traditional shooting after several years with a wheelie.  When shooting my compound an acceptable MOA was 1" for every 10 yards of distance.  So a 2" group was considered good for 20 yards, a 4" group for 40 yards, etc.  Is the MOA any different for a recurve?  In other words, I started out at 15 yards and am getting pretty good groups.  At what point (consistent group size) can I start moving back?

[Claypipe]

Hey Doublegun,  I have just recently started shooting trad as well.  What I did is when I started shooting about 4" groups at 10 yards I switched from shooting groups to shooting 1 arrow at a time.  I shoot 1 from 10, 1 at 15, 1 at 20, etc..  I vary my distance with every shot and I don't set a pattern.  I practice all the way out to 40 yards.  The farthest I would shoot at game right now is 20 but practicing to 40 makes that 20 yard shot seem like a cake walk.  Have a good day and keep 'em in the middle, TMG.

[Double Creek]

There are no barebow recurve shooters that can shoot minute of angle out to 20 yds...  The fact that no one has shot a perfect 300 round in the barebow class proves it....

If you can double minute of angle you will win any shoot you enter....

[Orion]

That's telling it like it is, Joel.

[Doublegun]

As I said, I am just starting out here.  No matter what you are doing in life, if one does not start off with realistic expectations one is more likely to get frustrated (unnecessarily) and give up early.  I am just trying to set realistic expectations for myself.

With a reasonable amount of practice, shooting sub-MOA with a compound is pretty easy out to 40-yards.  So far, I am struggling with consistancy with my recurve.  Out of a group of 6-arrows I can usually get 2-groups of 2 arrows touching and the other two arrows somewhere in the general area (all within a paper plate) at 15-yards.  From the perspective of a compound - that is pretty bad, but for a recurve????

Just trying to set a realistic expectation for myself.  I don't expect to score any perfect scores, but I want to be able to shoot with confidence out to 30-yards by fall.  What I have learned so far:  FORM and CONSISTANCY are everything in this sport and the only way to achieve those is through daily practice while concentrating on form with every shot.

I owe it to my quarry to be able to deliver a humane shot and I will not draw back on an animal until I am confident that I can do that.

[Double Creek]

Doublegun,

It sounds like you are on the right track.  Shooting a traditional bow off the shelf without sights is not hard, shooting it consistently well is the challenge..

Don't let my above post discourage you, there are some amazing shots that can kill game across all distances.  I have 100% confidence that you can become deadly accurate out to 30yds with traditional gear....  It will take a lot of work and dedication, but there are many, many hunters that do it year in and year out.

A good way to understand the potential of trad gear is to browse the IBO website and look at tournament results....  These are the best shooters in the world shooting in optimal conditions.  

If you can hit the kill zone every shot out to 30yds you will win most tournaments and with a good sprinkling of 10's you will win all tournaments...

Consistency is often what seperates the elite from the rest of the group...  There are tons of very good shooters that can shoot a round of 3-D and have 80+% good shots.  However, it's that 20% that keeps them from being elite....  The elite archers rarely make a mistake, they are consistent on all shots....

The best advice I could give is to develop sound, repeatable form combined with a perfected aiming system...  

Good luck and good shooting.

[Doublegun]

Here is my take on hunting, in general.  It is becoming a lost art.  Today, new products focus on improved accuracy, longer distance and making hunting easier.  That is crap.  So now, a guy (or gal) can go out, buy a $500 inline ML, top it with a scope already calibrated for a specific load for that rifle, load pellets and a sabot and consistantly hit a target at 200-yards.  Skill required - a mimimal amount; all that is needed is $$$.  I had not picked up a bow in almost 25-years until I bought my Mathews.  It took me 10-minutes to split my first nock and start stripping off vanes. (I could not come close to shooting that well even with months/years of practice with the compound I used 25-years ago)  Skill - not that much. Just money.

I want to take a recurve into the woods this fall, hunt from the ground and see just how close I can get and strike quietly and confidently if/when the opportunity arises and  I want to do it artfully.  I owe that to myself and to my quarry.

[katman]

So what kind of recurve/accuracy have you purchased? I understand your point but feel you under estimate the skill required to make those shots IMO.

Seriously different traditional bows perform differently for different people just as in compounds, What one man can shoot lights out with another may have trouble keeping it on the target. Also as your form improves so will your ability to tune the arrows to the bow thus improving accuracy.

To answer your original questions,

1)I don't know of anyone who can shoot the same groups with traditional equipment and fully loaded compounds, same MOA. Grouping 4 inches at twenty yards consistently is good in my book.

2) I would say move back when you can group in a pie plate. Shooting longer distances will magnify form errors and make shooting shorter shots easier. Many of us practice 40-60 or more yards ON THE RANGE but keep hunting shots much closer, 15-20 yards is a chip shot when you know you can hit at 40.

After shooting you will know what range you feel comfortable with on the range making a killing shot with the FIRST shot, then subtract 5 yards and hunt with that, since the excitement of the moment my affect accuracy.

 Good luck and keep flingin em.

[Orion]

"I want to be able to shoot with confidence out to 30 yards by fall " is a bit unrealistic.  I disagree with Double Creek a little.  There are some hunters who can kill consistently out to 30 yeards with traditional gear, but not many.  I've been shooting a stick and string for nearly 50 years, and in that time, I can count on one hand the number of stickbow shooters (with hunting, not target equipment)  who can put 8 out of 10 arrows into a paper plate size kill zone at 30 yards, and that's on a range, under controlled/ideal condition.  It's more difficult yet when shooting at game.  Most traditional bowhunters take the vast majority of their game at 20 yards and in.  That would be a more realistic goal to set for your first year. Good luck.

[Doublegun]

This is why I ask the question.  First of all, I have nothing but respect for anyone who can consistantly place arrows on a pie plate at 20-yards and I do have a healthy respect for the skill required to do so.  Confidence at 30-yards may be a pipe dream but it is a goal.  Realistically, hunting from the ground in woodlots, 30-yards would be a long shot even with a compound.  I have watched similar threads as this on "wheelie" boards and most say that they kill deer between 12 and 22 yards.

Increased distances really does magnify flaws in form - even with a compound.  

I am shooting a 1974 Ben Pearson "Hunter" (45# & 48" AMO)  I just purchased an early 70's Kodiak Hunter (50# & 60AMO) which I should receive Monday.  I am a sucker for the beauty of some of the bows from the 60's and 70's.

I'll continue to spend most of my time with the BP until I develop enough strength without being overbowed.  Stopped at 3 Rivers Archery last week and picked up a dozen wood arrows and some pointers from one of the guys who works there. I am fortunate to be able to work out of my house so it is very easy for me to take a couple of breaks and fling a few arrows every day.

Thanks again for the discussion and advice.  I hope to be able to keep coming back for more advice as I progress.  Who knows, maybe I'll end up selling my souless Mathews and get religion.

Doublegun

[aromakr]

Trying not to be sarcastic, I think all of you need to back to shooting rifles!! In the real world you only get one arrow at any animal. When you can put that first arrow into the kill at distances under 30 yards, you've accomplished what your trying to do. get the MOA out of your thinking.
Bob

[R H Clark]

aromakr, I agree with you to a point. I think the MOA in this thread is just to say what size group. When I shoot I shoot groups because I want to know what I can do EVERY time. I might get lucky and hit a quarter size spot at 60yds the first shot. If I can't hit very close to the same spot 5 more times it doesn't mean anything.

[vermontrad]

I have recently started shooting and I find trying to shoot groups way more frustrating. I tried to get away from the target and started shooting blunts at a softball I would toss out at whatever distance it rolled to (10-25 yards) and shoot that with one arrow and found a higher success rate than trying to put it in the center of a target. Now I am shooting more at targets again but usually with one arrow and put it in a softball size spot most of the time from 10-20 yards. I am not trying to become a good target shooter but want to be able to put one arrow where it needs to go. Love stump shooting even more and find it to be the best practice, the woods here in the east are tight to say the least and judging distance and picking a clear path are added challenges that I think I will find while hunting from the ground.
So, IMHO, forget the MOA and take to the woods!

[vermontrad]

All that being said, I also do practice grouping them and want for the day that I can slap arrows together consistently. But for now my first goal is to put the first arrow where it counts. Damn groups are like a speedometer on my bicycle, just keeps telling me how slow I really am! Lots of luck and keep practicing...

[aromakr]

R H:
AS far as I'm concerned shooting a group from the same distance and set of conditions only tells you that your are capable of repeating those conditions at that time in space.
When you can shoot fist size groups from 10-30 yards, each arrow from a different distance and different shooting position, i.e. standing,kneeling,sitting,leaning forward and backward, then I'll talk groups.
Bob

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

As a bowhunter, the first arrow is the one I'm most concerned about, but it's the rest of the arrows in the group that let me know the first one wasn't dumb luck.    

[R H Clark]

Aromakr,I agree practice should be all that you have said. I don't think anyone should stay at just one spot and shoot groups. However I do think that an accurate archer should be able to shoot a good group anywhere from zero to whatever his long range limit is.

Sometimes there are reasons an archer does better with one arrow at a time.It could be his bow is a little to heavy to get 6 or more shots off in a row without collapsing his form.Or maby he can't keep his concentration that long.Or some other reason.

Sometimes a group will tell me more than a single arrow. The last few days I have been fine tuneing for a 3D shoot and my groups have been centered about 3 inches left. I was able today to tune back to center because I kept a record of my group. I don't think one arrow would have told me as much.

As an archer I just want to be able to repeat a shot. It doesn't really matter if it is one at a time or 6 so long as I know I can make that shot every time.

[Longbow Bowhunter]

As long as you have the right quipment, tuned properly and matched, very few do, it is all up to you double gun on what accuarcy you will get, it is no longer the bow

[jhansen]

Whew!  I don't think I've ever seen anyone draw that much fire for asking an innocent question on this forum.  Okay so he chose the wrong acronym (MOA) and maybe didn't know how to phrase his question with all the right trad terminology.  I also read what he had to say about people trying to replace skill with technology and my only thought was that this is someone I wouldn't mind sharing a hunting camp with.  His heart and head are in the right place.  I'll choose to answer his questions a little differently.

There is only one shot.  The trick is to make exactly that same shot time after time.  If you can master this you could be the next Byron Ferguson or Howard Hill.  Most of us aren't quite that good.  I know I'm not.  But the day you quit trying to be better is the day you are as good as you will ever be.  Be sure your bow and arrows are tuned to each other.  The rest is up to you.

John

[Doublegun]

Thanks, John.

Not trying to start a rukus - just wanted to make sure my expectations are not unreasonable.  I still think I can get to the point where I can keep em in a pie plate at 30-yards by fall.  Got to have a goal, right, and the exercise will do me good.

I appreciate your comment about sharing a hunting camp.  I'll be hunting the forest around Grayling, MI probably along the S. Branch of the AuSable River.  My camp will be easy to identify.  I have two English Setters who help me chase grouse and a couple of old damascus double-barrel shotguns that keep me busy when not chasing deer.