Shooters Forum

Contribute to Trad Gang
Become a Trad Gang Sponsor



Author Topic: Why prohibit elevated rests??  (Read 3843 times)

Offline Ifish

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 8
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 06:39:00 AM »
If someone wants to shoot their hunting gear at a 3-D shoot, that's cool. But why would they care if a guy with a "target" bow gets a better score? I don't see the problem.

Offline dragonheart

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3593
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2007, 07:52:00 AM »
If you are not competitive in the sport, I guess you would not care.  If you are a competitive archer, and enjoy that aspect of 3-D then some  equipment can have an advantage over other.  In Texas we have the Texas State Longbow Championship.  It is a great tournament.  It is designed for competition, heads up.  The equipment rules a strict limiting the size of the riser of the bow, wood arrows only, split finger release, etc.  In turn everyone is on a level playing field as far as eqipment.  No one has an unfair advantage due to equipmment.  It is just ablity vs. ability.  If competition is not your thing than, I guess you would not care.  I have seen some guys that say they are not competitive, then worry about what they score on a round.  There is also a place for just go and shoot with no score cards.
Longbows & Short Shots

Offline Tom A

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2007, 02:51:00 PM »
When you try to define what is and what is not hunting gear. You are going to have a lot of issues.  For one thing what about women and children shooting 10-20# bows? Are you going to ban them from shooting? A 35# machined Hoyt might be a little light to hunt with but I doubt it. A person with a 30" draw could turn that bow into a deadly killing machine.  40# is legal where I live.  And a 40# machined hoyt bow is exactly what I hunt with some days. Others its a 48# glass/wood longbow.

Offline DesertDude

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2058
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2007, 03:55:00 PM »
Well here goes, when I first started  shooting,
3-D targets were just starting to hit the market. our club had the following classes, release compound, fingers compound, non-sight compound, traditional.  This was all the classes, now we have. Now we have 5 Traditional classes. recurve open, recurve, longbow non-wood arrows, longbow wood arrows, primative. As long as we feel the need to divide ourselfs by what we shoot there will be no end to it. When 3-D Tournements really started hitting it big in our area, all the Top shooter were shooting Traget style bows for the class they were in. It's like showing up to a drag race and saying to the guy next to you "Hay what's up with running Slicks?" when your running street tires.  If it's within the rules then why not take advantage of it? If your there to win....If your there to inprove you shooting skills for hunting then, just don't turn in your score card. It seems more and more, Traditional shooter feel the need to divide ourselfs by what we shoot......Mark
DesertDude >>>----->

US Navy (Retired)
1978-1998

Offline Blue Moose

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2007, 04:17:00 PM »
Funny how the simplest little item can lead to such complicated issues:).

As someone hinted at above, the rule to prohibit elevated rests probably had little to do with the rest itself, but rather with the type of bow that elevated rests tend to be attached to.

In any case, that's my best shot at answering the original question at the top of this thread. Now I'm starting to remember why I went back to longbow & wood arrows;).

TM

Offline DesertDude

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2058
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2007, 04:27:00 PM »
Blue....I often dream of the days when archery simple.  Let's just go shoot and have some fun...
DesertDude >>>----->

US Navy (Retired)
1978-1998

Offline TSP

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2007, 05:52:00 PM »
Some good points.  Those who suspect that elevated rests might be considered part of a target bow approach...and thus frowned upon in a trad setting (at least when shooting against shelf bows)...might be right.  To try and accomodate most shooters in a COMPETITIVE shoot I don't see how the 'no dang rules, just shoot!' approach would work and still create fair competition.  At the same time not all shoots need be laced with a 'gotta win' attitude.  Competitive shoots can be fun in their own way, and no-score shoots can be competitive ('Bet ya' can't stick one in that coyote's nose, Vern').  So, best be careful not to get too "convinced" about expounding the attributes of one over the other.

Offline TaterHill Archer

  • Moderator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 603
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2007, 03:03:00 AM »
Thanks for all the input.  Not sure I agree with all the ideas presented (i.e. a bow with an elevated rest is a target bow and not a hunting bow), but that's what makes the world go 'round.  I used to shot an elevated rest, but they seem to wear fairly fast and mess up my tuning.  Shooting off the shelf is more consistent for me.
Jeff

"Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline jdupre

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2007, 07:19:00 PM »
I might step on a few toes here,but I think what is referred to as traditional by many people nowadays was influenced by Asbell's books. Shooting off of the shelf, canting the bow, not using the arrow as a reference, emphasis on shooting from awkward positions - all taken from Asbell's books.
Don't get me wrong, I like the man's writing and have his books, but I think the timing of the introduction of his books as the stickbow movement grew lead to the idea that his style of shooting and equipment was THE right way to do it.
When you have people saying that using the arrow as a reference is "cheating" , something is wrong. For goodness sake, Howard Hill himself would not be able to shoot in some 3D events without people wispering about him AIMING. That's just not right.

Offline TSP

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2007, 10:28:00 PM »
Having read Asbell's books, attended his workshop at Denton Hill, listened to one of his tapes, seen his video and read his TBM articles nowhere did I notice any contention on his part that his way is 'THE right way to do it'.  On the contrary, he seems to out of his way to allow for shooters to choose what works for their own circumstance.  He definately does believe that his method is effective, and he does provide detailed guidance for the how and why of his perspective.  But isn't that how any well-planned description of method, whatever method it happens to be, should be handled?  I don't shoot Asbell's style, but I do admire the approach he uses for supporting his views.  Not sure how any of the Asbell theory has anything to do with 'cheating', aiming, Howard Hill or a perceived conspiracy against elevated rests, though.

As suggested in some of the prior posts, the image of elevated rests being target-oriented might have been honed by what kinds of rests are being used on todays bows, both compounds and modern recurves.  Rests with multiple moving parts...metal, plastic, Teflon, rubber, metal alloy and all manner of patent-pending paraphenalia.  It started way back with simple 'bumps' of wood or leather, then feather strips, then rubber/plastic horns (like the BEAR rest), then metal Springys and Flippers (bergers on the side...any fries with that?), and eventually morphed into huge and wildly complicated metal/plastic concoctions looking more like spaceage plumbing than an arrow rest.  Precision tools.  Target shooter tools.  

Admittedly, those early feather and rubber rests are hardly the same as their modern cousins.  But both types ARE elevated rests, and thus the potential for an image connection, albeit a remote one, remains.  

Perhaps the general worry about rests, and indeed about the recent interest in using target gear mentality in developing new hunting gear, is that the simplicity and even the identity of the bow and arrow ('simple stick and string') might be compromised by adding progressively complicated 'devices', with the intent of 'improving' on that original simplicity.  Anyone comparing hunting bows of the Howard Hill era with today's newest creations can see the differences in approach...and perhaps at least recognize why some are concerned even if not agreeing with it.  In cases like the early elevated rests the worry doesn't seem  warranted.  But, there's always the eternal question that begs a response...as a group of archers aspiring to the challenge of pursuing game with simple stick and string...where DO we draw the line?

Offline MDbowhunter

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2007, 10:44:00 PM »
I think most here would admit that there is a big difference between a FITA target recurve and a D-style longbow.  By making the elevated rest illegal you eliminate most target style recurves.  In turn you end up with a division that has more similar equipment being used from shooter to shooter.  Often there will be a different classes for different bows.

However, most of the times when I shoot 3d, there is no scoring taking place and people can shoot what ever they want.
Looking to buy RH Black Widow HS takedown recurve bows.  Please send Private Message.

Offline SteveB

  • SPONSOR
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2007, 05:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MDbowhunter:
I think most here would admit that there is a big difference between a FITA target recurve and a D-style longbow.  By making the elevated rest illegal you eliminate most target style recurves.
You are also eliminating a significant and growing number of recurve hunting bows. Fiberglass,carbon, FF strings, cnc machines, etc have taken us well past the "HH" era - especially the early part.

Modern rests and plungers, especially those used on hunting recurves are basically a bent wire, and a screw with a spring. No more hi tech then using the latest carbon weave in a limb or the raw material for bullet proof vests as a string.

Two classes - Primitive and any hunting legal wght bow. No sights.

JMO

Steve

Offline dragonheart

  • TG HALL OF FAME
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3593
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2007, 09:52:00 AM »
One option is to eliminate the competion all together.  Are not some of the largest tradtion events where people are shooting bows at rubber critters have no score cards?  Competition breeds an atmosphere of a fair playing field.  At least a percived level of fairness in the rules.  Rules are created becuase someone thought someone had an unfair equipment advantage.  I use this as an example of how things get banned.
 
Keith Bain wins Texas State longbow with Dan Quinllan bamboo longhunter.

Keith wins with 21st Century Longbow (Jim & Buddy Early bow) with a bigger riser.  Beats competitors by 100 points on course.  Rule committe outlaws bow due to handle being too big.

Keith comes back with 21st Century with the overlays taken off the bow.  Small handle reflex/deflex bow.  He wins.  Bow oulawed after shoot, needs to be a D-shape when strung.  A percieved advantage!

Keiih returns next year with D-shaped bow.  Wins Shoot!  And I do not know how many he has won, but it might be the shooter, not the bow.  

With that said, can Keith win a 50 yrd shoot at a 2 inch bullseye for the best 4 arrow group against an above average modern compound shooter?  I do not think so.  But I bet you can make them shoot and hit a pie plate at 20 yrds but tell them that you have belly crawled up on a deer and have to shoot in the prone position.  I would bet on Keith.

This thread started as an elevated rest being prohibited.  Rules typically come from someone stating there is an unfair advantage, real or imagined.  Where do you draw the line?

Longbows & Short Shots,
Jeff
Longbows & Short Shots

Offline BLACK WOLF

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 493
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2007, 01:00:00 PM »
Very good example Jeff!!!

It can often get out of hand and where do we try and draw the line.

There are advantages and disadvantages with certain equipment choices...based on the fact that some choices help reduce the effect of human error...and when you have an archer with the talent and ability Keith demonstrates the equipment won't matter that much because he doesn't shoot with very many errors.

I personally would like to see competitions based on 'mind sets'.

Let the trad target archers compete against themselves with specific rules and regs. Let the trad bowhunters comete aginst themselves with different rules and regs...and let the primitive trad archers compete against themselves in either a seperate target class or a seperate bowhunter class for them also.

Ray  ;)

Offline BLACK WOLF

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 493
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2007, 01:02:00 PM »
If someone is that driven to compete than they should shoot the best equipment they feel they need to to win. If an archer is using equipment they know or believe is inferior to compete with, it's their fault for using it.

Ray  ;)

Offline JC

  • Moderator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 4462
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2007, 02:09:00 PM »
Interesting thread. In my locale, we often have a seperate class for elevated rests. To me, elevated rests are an obvious advantage: they are more forgiving than shooting off the shelf. I don't think carbon vs/aluminum, recurve vs/longbow, metal vs/wood risers are nearly as far apart as off the shelf vs/elevated rest.

I have no issue with an elevated rest in competition. But if I'm competing, I would consider an elevated rest to be an unfair advantage if lumped in the class with shooting off the shelf,  depending on the shooter. Around here, the top 3-4 spots are typically seperated by only a few percentage points so any small equipment advantage could be the difference between winning and losing.

Rules exist in an attempt to level the playing field. Every sport has rules that exist for this purpose. You don't run nitro/top fuel dragsters with daily drivers at the dragstrip. You seperate the classes so each person can compete, hopefully closely and fairly, with others who have the desire to use similar equipment.

The bigger shoots often eliminate certain classes, as Keith said, not so much for "what is and isn't traditional" but for the sake of having enough people to participate in the class and decrease the costs of trophies etc. I'm fine with that, as long as I know the rules, clearly defined, before going into the competition. If I don't want to shoot with your rules, I simply won't turn in a card.

I know I can shoot better with an elevated rest, period. It is more forgiving and it makes a definate difference in my scores. But I don't want to shoot an elevated rest...just like I dont want to shoot a compound etc....I have chosen where my technological line will be drawn. If others choose to draw theirs differently, I support them. As long as they aren't shooting in my class   ;)  

jmho, your mileage may vary.
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
TGMM Brotherhood of the Bow

Offline BLACK WOLF

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 493
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2007, 03:48:00 PM »
This is based on my personal experience and isn't a reflection of anyone elses.

I personally see a minimal advantage going from shooting off the shelf to an elevated rest...unless the elevated rest also includes the use of a cushion plunger.

At typical hunting distances and the size of the scoring rings in 3D tournaments, I don't think it matters much...but when the targets are further away and are smaller, the advantages of an elevated rest and cushion plunger will become more apparent.

I use to compete in 3D tournaments and NFAA 300 rounds shooting off the shelf with my Black Widow and have only seen an increase of about 2% going to my DAS with a metal handle, elevated rest, cushion plunger and Olympic limbs, so it's hard to say exactly which of those upgrades improved my shooting.

Ray  ;)

Offline James Wrenn

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1933
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2007, 09:16:00 AM »
I personally think the no rest rule is just dumb.You are handicaping anyone that is shooting an older bow.They were all built to use a rest not shoot off the shelf.What has happened is a few small minds in there attempt to cull out a target bow has used the rule to cull out or handicap most all of the older recurves as well in the process.I shoot off the shelf to follow such rules however I will use a rest for my hunting bows.I think it is a darn shame any time a rule keeps someone from useing there hunting rig at a 3d. jmo
....Quality deer management means shooting them before they get tough....

Offline BLACK WOLF

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 493
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2007, 10:50:00 AM »
I agree with James. It is a darn shame any time a rule keeps someone from useing there hunting rig at a 3d., which is why I believe competitions should be set up for the differemt mind sets.

Ray  ;)

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2507
Re: Why prohibit elevated rests??
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2007, 11:53:00 AM »
As someone who use to shoot a lot of NFAA competitions, I suppose I've always believed that as long as someone's following the rules, there is no such thing and an unfair advantage. Advantage? Yes. Unfair advantage? No. If something is allowed, and you choose not to use it (or do it), that's your decision.

Switching gears to 3D...

Most of the clubs around here have very relaxed rules. As long as your not shooting sights, a mechanical release, or have a long stabilizer, you're generally good to go in the traditional class. I've shot against people with short stabilizers, stripped-down Fita bows and even folks who were string walkers. Some I've beat, others I haven't. I could have shot similar equipment or walked the string but chose not to.

Did those people have an advantage over me? Probaby so. If I choose to to play baseball barehanded, it doesn't mean the next guy is being unfair when he takes the field with his glove on.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©