instinctive at long range

[deermaster1]

i am confused. i am new to instinctive shooting and trad archery. my bow is being made so i havnt shot yet. when shooting instinctivly, does your mind compansate for the drop at longer ranges 35-50 yards, or does the arrow still drop but is verticly on target, just lower? if so, how does a instinctive shooter practice at longer ranges? do you have to use gaps at longer range? please help. thanks!!

[BLACK WOLF]

If you want to be consistant at long range I would highly suggest you learn a conscious aiming system.

Instinctive aiming accurately at long ranges is EXTREMELY hard to do. Sure you might get a few that hit the bullseye but I have yet to see a true instinctive archer group arrows consistantly at longer distances. There may be a few out there that can do it...but I would bet they are rare.

I personally would suggest you learn how to aim using Split Vision if you still want to aim instinctively at closer distances. Those 2 aiming systems are more alike than the others you could choose from.

Sometimes it may help to first learn Point of Aim to learn your gaps.

I personally have learned Point of Aim, Gap, Split Vision and Instinctive Aiming and can pick and choose which one I will use depending on what the shot calls for.

Ray  

[R H Clark]

I agree with Ray.Doesn't much matter what you use untill you get out past 30 yards.I gap past 30 yards because point on is about 40 yards for me.

[mcgroundstalker]

Hey There Michael! I think instinctive shooting works well at almost any range...if you do your part and learn the right way from the start. Understand it may not be the best for shooting groups. So, are you a hunter or target shooter?

Try your best to get a hold of Jay Kidwells book "Instinctive Archery Insights". That will answer many questions for you. Remember you gotta put all the stuff in the book into practice. That's what makes it work!

My 2 cents worth ...    ...

... mike ...

[rnharris]

Know your set up and shoot longer distances to develope form as longer distances will magnify
any problems as release or arrow spine being stiff or weak i'm a new trad shooter as well
iv'e shot thousands of arrows in 6 mos.it will come togather with time don't know if anybody else out there does this but i actually have 3 diff anchor points 3 under 10 yds split middle finger corner of mouth 10 to 18 yds 18 to 25 yds index finger corner of mouth this is mainly for yard practice and 3 d hunting i believe instinct will kick in hope this helps Ralph.

[Bonebuster]

What Black Wolf said. Long range shooting (30-50)
and instinctive don`t go hand in hand.

It can be done. Good luck.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Instinctive shooting is not that difficult.  It just takes practice/conditioning.  I refer to it as "conditioned trajectory".  If you build a reliable form base all that's left is conditioning your stance to make the longer shots.  Not that difficult at all, just takes shooting the bow and time for it to take.  

If your left and right suffer, its your form, not your aiming method.  Get a bale, back off about 10 feet and work on form; one shot at a time.  High/low is merely conditioning.

[Danny Rowan]

Sorry, but I do not agree with the statement"longrange shooting and instinctive do not mix well" I shoot out to 50 yards regularly and would shoot further if I had the space. I look at what I want to hit and I hit it. Simple as that, just takes knowing your bow and arrow set up which means lots of shooting practice at many different ranges.

Danny

[BLACK WOLF]

Sure...there will be people who disagree...but in most cases those are the few who can do it. You have to look at the overall picture.

I have yet to see ANY instinctive shooter shoot at long distance at the level that wins archery tournaments in all the years I have competed and studied archery.

There's a reason why Howard Hill suggests that if an archer wants to be a target archer that they learn a different aiming techinique other than instinctive aiming.

There's advantages and disadvantages with every aiming system...and instinctive aiming is at a disadvantage to the other aiming techiniques in regards to long distance shooting where being consistantly accurate is a concern.

Ray  

[KSdan]

I am listening Ray- but you mention HHill who did shoot instinctive over 100 yds.  And I know people say he had an aiming method, but not according to his closest protege' John Schulz.

[oneshot1]

Are you talking target or hunting???? Like Danny Rowan, I also just look at my target and hit it, might be a shade out of the X-ring,but close enough for hunting. I equate it to shooting a basketball, toss up enough and after a while you know it's going to be a swish when the ball leaves your hands and before the ball gets to the rim. Practice with the same set up you are hunting with, groups at known yardage show that you are consistant in your mechanics, spot on single shots at un-known ranges show an ingrained skill set. When I lived in Az, a friend I shot with had a wheelie and liked to shoot 50+ yards, so I got pretty good at the longer ranges, could I win a 3-D shoot??? Not likely hehehe... but the deer and javlina that fell to an arrow launched from 50 yards+ didnt notice.

[42WLA]

Originally posted by KSdan:
I am listening Ray- but you mention HHill who did shoot instinctive over 100 yds.  And I know people say he had an aiming method, but not according to his closest protege' John Schulz.

Well, if you read Howard's books and writings he certainly describes an aiming method he used and procribed.

[suburbanirma]

An instinctive shot happened the first time you loosed an arrow. From that point on, adjustments are made, whether consciously or not, until satisfactory results happen. It is a conditioning process.
According to Bob Wesley, another HH "favorite" protege from Mississippi who became a world champion longbow shooter and teaches "How to hit like Howard Hill," Hill used a point of aim/split vision method of aiming. Wesley uses and teaches that method.
For many of us, improvement in accuracy comes slowly as we work to build a solid shooting foundation/form. Developing the "feel" of proper back tension before the release is the part of the shot that can be elusive. Once that happens, though, the bow arm will stay up and pointed at the target throughout the shot and, if the bow/arrows are tuned properly, windage is dialed in. Then it's a matter of developing the "sight picture" that allows for distance control. That is where point of aim/split vision/gap or "instinctive" shooting come into play.
We all want to be as accurate as possible with our bows and arrows. Some of us are blessed with more natural talent to do so than others. Kinda like comparing an "average Joe" basketball player to Michael Jordan. So, we "average Joe" guys resort to various aiming techniques to get us closer to our goal. We enjoy the heck out of hunting with a bow and want to make sure that when we loose an arrow at a living target that we can place the arrow where it will rsult in a quick, humane kill.

[KSdan]

Dave- I am just fire side chatting here-so I could be out to lunch- but I do not recall any aiming "method" like using something on the bow or arrow as a sight.  I understand he spoke of seeing his arrow in his peripheral while seeing the spot he was shooting at- but I call that instinctive- as it still is not using a reference point as some type of measurement.  In other words, he did not figure/consider the distance then try to accomodate his bow.  He simply shot the bow like others have mentioned they do.  

I am not arguing here- just seems like there are those who can shoot without using aiming devices.  I can't use an aiming device- I am a RH shooter with left eye dominance- so I can't see down the arrow or anything.  I have been shooting the trad for twenty years now, I simply focus on a spot and shoot with decent mechanics.  A clicker has made me incredibly consistent.  Kind of like my collegiate basketball days-its all feel. When I am practicing regularly- 30 yards is not unreasonable for hunting (6 inch groups), and 40 yards for practice is pretty good.  With that said- 25 on in is generally my limit.

Some of you sound like you know more about actual shooting technique- so I am sure there are some better methods to try than mine.  Sure appreciate the various viewpoints- some things to try.

Good shooting and hunting
Dan

[BLACK WOLF]

Defining labels and names helps in communicating effectively.

Instinctive Aiming is NOT an instinct that is defined in our Biology 101 classes...BUT aiming instinctivly means a bow and arrow can be aimied INSTINCT LIKE...and it doesn't ONLY happen with the first arrow.

Aiming instinctively means the archer is not CONSCIOUSLY using ANY reference points other than the target within their periphial vision to adjust aim. The instinctive archer relies on the SUBCONSCIOUS to make the adjustments using the sight picture, proprioception and muscle memory while the CONSCIOUS mind is completely focused on the target.

Howard Hill could aim that way...but research indicates he primarily used what he called Split Vision for the majority of his shots, which invloves CONSCIOUSLY splitting the archer's vision between the target and the arrow. It's a form of gap shooting that is VERY similar to instinctive aiming.

I am by NO means trying to say instinctive aiming sucks because it definitely doesn't...BUT I am saying that it does have it's advantages and disadvantages...and instinctive aiming DOES NOT have an advantage over the other aiming systems when it comes to long distance shooting in regards to BOTH consistantcy and accuracy.

The only time I can think that aiming instinctively may have an advantage when shooting at long distances is when one shot counts and needs to be shot within a second or two.

Ray      

[Bonebuster]

To all of those who can shoot purely instinctive at what is considered "long range", I wish you were my neighbor so you could help teach me.
I KNOW it can be done.

I can honestly stand beside anyone and hold my own as far as shooting skills,... until about 20-25 yards. After that , on a good day it starts to show that I am beyond my effective range.

It must feel good to watch an arrow arch and spin its way across fifty yards, and hit what you want. And then, put one right next to the first!

Hats off to all who can, and to all who strive for it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don't shoot "purely instinctive".  I shoot instinctive archery.  Its not a definition, its a style.  It merely  identifies an aiming method that does not use an accessory, arrow or mark to aim.  Its not a webster's thing.  If one wants to play with words, they should go back to school.  This style of shooting the bow goes back a few years.  Its been known as "instinctive" and when one says they shoot instinctive, others who have been around a while know what they're talking about.  The rest, well, they try to define the word...    

[Arwin]

I did fairly well at the Rhinehart 100 shooting out to 38 yds ( according to the wheelie bow persons range finder in front of me,LOL!)

[GroundHunter]

Just my take on it. Instinctive archery is deveolping the eye/hand/body coordination and incorpoating whatever "references" your mind uses while focusing your attention on the spot to hit, to shoot without a conscious "aiming". OK?

So, a lot of the instictive archers, including howard Hill and Byron Fergusson talk about split vision, or a the tip or line of the arrow in peripheral vision or awareness. And, they say as you develop the skill you become less and less aware of the reference, 'til it is no longer consciously used. But it's in your form and your mental picture as you rivit your attention on the spot, and hit it.

Some start with the a conscious attention to the reference and move to unawareness. Others start without any conscious focus on a reference - just the spot. I think the latter develop instinctive skill faster bcause they do not get tripped up on the reference and "aiming" with it.

That is my personal experience, as i started as a reference shooter, and did not really feel I was making progress 'till I dumped the reference and "zenned" the spot. Use the Force, Luke!

Just try it - it's totally a kick that you can statre at it and own the spot with your arrow.
Yup, "become the arrow".

[BLACK WOLF]

'Instinctive Archery'...'Instinctive Aiming' are all defined, which means they have definitions to communicate to people what they mean....and for those that are searching for the meaning of words...they can research those words by using the Webster and/or coming to archery boards such as this one to find out what certain archery related labels or names mean. Sometimes a person has to sift through some garbage to find the truth...but that's a fact of life we all experience from time to time.

There are those that try to redefine it, relabel it or argue that there is no such thing based on semantics...which is ignorant and/or based on insecurities.

The beauty of aiming instinctively is that you learn to nearly empty your mind and completely focus on one spot and trust that your subconscious mind and body will accurately do what it needs to do to hit the bullseye...and when it happens...it's almost like magic      

Ray