Das Kinetic Sight

[NDTerminator]

Purely for the hell of it and because I like to fiddle I just ordered a Das Kinetic Sight to experiment with.  The concept certainly seems viable.

I'm curious if anyone else has tried or uses one, and what their experience and impressions are...

[Blackhawk]

I figured those sights would gather dust when I saw them advertised.  :D    The trad police are going to hunt you down and put you away.    

Actually, I would like to see an unbiased report on its effectiveness, so let us know.  Are you putting it on a DAS or ???

[Naphtali]

Go to Trad Talk and search for SRF sights and/or Rusty Craine. Mr. Craine probably has the most hands-on experience of any SRF user.

I have a "B" size SRF. But I intend to obtain David's three-pack because I own three DAS bows.

Hope this helps.

[NDTerminator]

"The trad police are going to hunt you down and put you away".

Probably all ready on the warrant list for using an elevated rest and vanes on my aluminium arrows.  Heck, I might even experiment with replaceble 3 blade broadheads!  :eek:  

Going to try the sight on my Chek-Mate Hunter 1 or my Kota Prairie Swift.  Both are zippy bows, it'll be interesting to see the results...

[Scott F]

I made my own out of a small piece of copper pipe then put it on my Quinn Stallion.  It took some time to get used to but I think that it actually helped me focus (ironically) on the target, not the sight.  If this one ever breaks I may purchase one, but this one suits me fine.

[beleg]

I have use one on my roving/hunting bow for some time.
IMHO  it is incredible how you can shoot with it!
If I stop shooting some time, it takes some time to "remember" how it shots but from 5 to 20 yds Im always within 2" from my aiming point all day long 24/7.
It works, its is a reduced frame that aids aiming.
You can get more info at Tradtalk.
Hope this helps.
Martin

[TSP]

The concept promoted by this device is as old as the hills...that you focus on a centered spot.  Most shooters who don't use point-of-aim use the same basic approach, except its done subconciously without an actual sighting device mounted on the bow.  As an aid to helping achieve better focus on the target (like a clicker helps shooters reach full anchor) I suppose it has merit.  But I have to wonder whether its marketing advantages (options help with profit margins) outweigh its value as a teaching aid for really learning to shoot 'instinctively'.  It has been described as an "instinctive sight", which is a bit like having a device called a "flat ball" or a "round square"...the terms are contradicting.  But whatever one calls it, consider that the central concept is training to focus on a spot...and learning that concept can be done, and perhaps is more appropriately learned, without add-on devices by simply spending some quality time at the practice bale.  Also, if an 'instinctive sight' is truely used as a sight rather than a temporay teaching aid then in practice it is no different than a pin or crosshair sight.  And in that case its value to shooting instinctively might indeed be questionable (at that point acting perhaps more like a sighting crutch than an instinctive  teaching aid).  

Its an interesting and clearly touchy area that I'm sure has good arguements to both sides.  I suppose its up to the individual to decide for themselves, but for newcomers looking for help with learning to shoot, beware of the motive and gadget aspects (and learning value) of ANY add-on device.  Like the old saying goes, if it seems too good to be true...it probably is.  

[BLACK WOLF]

The sight is as close to an instinctive sight as any sight can get.

There's a fine line between an aiming system being totally instinctive and an aiming system that is partially instinctive.

If at anytime an archer consciously uses a reference to adjust the aim...they are not TOTALLY aiming instinctively and when an archer's reference point is closer to the target...it is harder to not use it consciously as when using a sight or when the arrow tip is close to being on target.

As far as it being a training tool to learn how to aim instinctively??? Maybe for some.

If an archer has a goal of learning to aim without sights and wants to eventually learn to aim instinctively...I would suggest learning an actual barebow aiming techinique such as Gap...but for those that want a more precise frame around the target other than the bow's riser and don't like pins...the DAS sight would be hard to beat.

Ray  

[NDTerminator]

My goal is not to learn how to shoot Trad, but to improve the precision of my current technique.  I think of it as "instinct-gap", as I utilize parts of both techniques...

[Scott F]

Here is what the SRF-type sight has done for me.  All of my glass bows to date have been greater than 60# so at my 29.5" draw length.  I decided to try my hand at a lower draw weight to see if I can improve my accuracy so I bought a 50# at my draw length Quinn Stallion.  Shooting this lighter weight bow I sometimes find myself second guessing my sight picture because I can hold this bow at full draw for ever (target panic?).  Using this type of sight has allowed me to put all of my focus down-range at the target where I suppose it should be.  Can I see the sight when shooting?, well sort of, but to me it is very similar to shooting a rifle with a peep sight (M16 is my experience).  The sight is like the rear sight on a rifle and is totally blurry and out of focus because my concentration is on the target.  I seem to shoot better with it on right now because it takes away some of the things that I used to concentrate on during the shot.  

One modification that I made on mine was to drill holes in the top and bottom of the sight and inserted a thin piece of wire.  When shooting if I EVER see the wire I know that I am not focused on the target and I usually let down the draw and wait for the next shot.  The ability for me to have the confidence in knowing that I am ready to shoot makes all the difference for me.  In other words, it has turned my practice into quality practice.  I hope that this makes sense.

[BLACK WOLF]

Scott,

"One modification that I made on mine was to drill holes in the top and bottom of the sight and inserted a thin piece of wire."

That is awesome. That makes total sense and something I never thought of.

Terminator,

I think the DAS sight is going to work perfectly for your goals!

Ray  

[TSP]

Perhaps it would be useful to first explain what 'instinctive shooting' might actually mean here.  I'd offer that it means using nothing other than the target or 'spot' itself to achieve an 'aim' for directing the flight of the projectile to the mark, with no physical device or artificial reference intentionally applied by the shooter during the effort.  In this definition any device intended and applied by the shooter as an integral part of the aiming effort and which is not a natural part of the shooter's sight picture is essentially not an aspect of instinctive shooting.  Before I say more, note that this isn't intended as a value judgement on whther one should or shouldn't use a sight.  Its simply an examination/observation of what instinctive shooting more or less is...and what it isn't.      

The Kinetic Sight and other devices like it are indeed kinds of sights, with the same general purpose as a pin sight, scope, peepsight, blade sight, etc.  If it works for you and you like it then great.  I'd just hope we don't start attaching meanings and characteristics to terms (or to devices) that in practice aren't reflective of reality.      

It would be interesting to hear from those who have actual hunting experience with this particular device, shot arrows at game with it, and actually taken game with it.  Pros and cons?

[Scott F]

Well I decided to take the sight off of my bow this evening and shot some arrows without it.  HUGE difference in my shooting -- and it was for the better!  I seriously think that if my groups begin to ever spread back out I will put it back on and shoot with it for a while.  I am too new to trad to be able to articulate the reason(s) why I shot better...but I did.

I sure hope that it wasn't just one of those days when everything works, tomorrow will tell the tale.

[BLACK WOLF]

Let's see...there's aiming a barebow instinctively and than there is aiming with a sight instinctively or "instinctive like", which is why the term is attached to the defice.

It isn't meant to add confusion...but apply a term that many archers are already familiar with to convey how the sight can be used.

There are many things in an archer's shot sequence that should become instinctive, which basically means there is no conscious thought involved to execute it besides the choice made to start drawing the bow.

When an archer aims instinctively there is a small area that the archer focuses on and sees, which they are consciously aware of. Many people describe this as "Burning a Hole in It". Everything else within the archer's sight picture is seen subconsciously within the their periphial vision because the archer is not consciously aware of them or focusing on them.

When a sight such as the DAS is added to the bow it is narrowing the frame surronding the target normally used by an instinctive archer to something much smaller, more precise and easier to reference...but it can still be used 'instinctive like'.

The reason why it can not be used totally instinctive is because the sight is within the archer's focus and not within their periphial vision.

It's reflective of reality...when you understand how it can be used and how a word such as 'instinctive' can be applied to it.

I personally don't see anything wrong with an instinctive sight...as long as an archer understands that when they are using it...they are not aiming TOTALLY instinctive.

Ray  

[TSP]

Scott, I'm glad the sight had some value as a training aid in learning to shoot instinctively without it.  Good for you!

Ray, I mostly agree with your description...except...I still believe that if you are using ANY point of reference (a sight, an arrow tip, your bow riser, string knots, whatever) outside what is, as you described, the blurred collection of objects and air that compile the shooter's natural sight picture, you are not shooting instinctively.  Either you are, or you aren't...no in-the-middle aspect to it.  Not a value judgement here, simply a point of view derived from logic.  Its sort of like going to work in the morning.  You leave that warm bed and go to work...or you stay in bed and don't go to work.  That is, unless your job is a whole lot better than mine.  

[BLACK WOLF]

TSP,

LOL...my POV is derived from logic too  

I already stated that if you are using ANYTHING within your sight picture as a reference CONSCIOUSLY other than the target you are NOT TOTALLY aiming instinctively...BUT...when you use a sight such as the one that DAS has created you can use it...instinctive LIKE...which means the aiming process is SIMILAR but NOT EXACTLY ALIKE.

Ray  

[TSP]

Lol, but my logic is SO much better than yours, Ray.      

How can you say that you are shooting instinctively when there's a sight sitting a foot from your face?  If you don't see the sight or use it for anything then ok...but in that case why would it be there?  If you see the sight, the one that you intentionally bought, mounted, calibrated and intentionally planned to use for..well, a sight...and then you in ANY way use it to direct the arrow...then it IS a sight...and thats not instinctive shooting.  Gee, I don't know how else to make the point..its pretty straightforward.

Well anyway, time to go to work.  Somebody please help me role my bed out to the car.    

[BLACK WOLF]

LOL...your logic maybe better than mine...but in this case...it isn't logic you're lacking....it's comprehension...or it could be my lack of making myself clear enough to you    

I think you are hung up on a word or words and their definitions.

An INSTINCT is basically a largely (NOT TOTALLY) inheritable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving conscious reasoning.

Something that is INSTINCTIVE relates to something being an instinct or instinct like.

In archery...the word instinctive is given to an aiming techinique that is instinct like...which basically means that the archer has learned to execute the aiming sequence without conscious reasoning other than picking the target and when to draw the bow. Most everything else during the shot sequence happens below the conscious level by using proprioception and muscle memory at the subconscious level to aim and shoot the bow.

An archer using the DAS sight can learn to do that to a CERTAIN extent by focusing so intently on the target that the sight becomes blurred as the arrow is typically blurred when an instinctive barebow shooter is aiming at a target.

The reason why I say that an archer can use that sight instinctively is because it is more SIMILAR or instinct like than an archer using a pin to place it on the target.

They are similar...yet not exactly the same.

Like I said from the beginning....the DAS sight is as CLOSE to an instinctive sight as a sight can get.

'Close' does not mean exactly like.

Does that help clarify anything at all?

Ray  

[TSP]

I comprehend perfectly, Ray.   I'm right and you're wrong.       :D  


"I think you are hung up on a word or words and their definitions."

       BILL CLINTON, GEORGE BUSH, RAY

 

[BLACK WOLF]

LOL...I get accused of being wrong from time to time...and that's OK...as long as I know I'm still right  

Ray