Form or Spine? ...We shall see... (Pics Added)

[Curtis Haden]

Well, I'm getting a little frustrated with my arrow flight, but not down and out yet.  No video to post, and I'm not convinced "just pics" can help much.  Here's the rub:

64" 52@28 Griffin Longbow.  Quietest brace height seems to be 7 1/2".  Nock point is set at 1/2" above, and I'm not having any up/down issues.  After playing with various anchor points for the last month or so, I've settled on one that seems the most consistent for me.  After measuring several times, I'm drawing exactly 28".  My index finger is just touching the corner of my mouth, and my (back) thumb joint is tucked behind the corner of my jaw. (Shooting split-fingers)

When I first got the bow, I bareshaft tested CX Heritage 150's extensively, BUT...I was only drawing about 27 3/4" at the time.  I think the standard inserts weigh 13 grains, and I was using a 50 grain weight adapter, with 150 grain points.  So... 213 grains up front.  Cut to 30" the arrows showed consistently weak at 15-20 yards.  Cut to 29.5" I was hitting my spot 4 out of 5 times.  Any misses were to the right, which I attributed to a very slightly weak shaft, combined with a poor release.  Thought I was set, so I had all the shafts cut to 29.5" and got 'em fletched up.

Here's what I'm seeing now... The fletched shafts appear to be kicking left in flight, and when I go to pull them, the nocks are pointing right.  I've played with nock position a lot (cock feather in/out/up) and I don't think it's kicking off the riser. Not hearing any tell-tale dings, and I'm not seeing unusual feather or rest material wear.

I'm grouping pretty good at 15-20 yards, but consistently right of my aiming point.  Even when I hit my spot, the nocks are still pointing off to the right.

SO...

That extra 1/4" of draw length maybe translates to a weak shaft for my setup?  Do hitting right AND nock right both indicate weak spine? ...Or, am I missing something obvious?  I THINK my form/alignment is good.  I feel like I'm extended plenty far with my drawing elbow, and my drawing hand springs straight back at release.  The only thing I'm not really confident about is my bow hand/arm follow through.  I've been really concentrating lately on the "push" part of my release, and if I have a weak spot, that's it.  I feel like I'm dropping my bow arm a little, but I'm working on it.  Also, I'm shooting at various cant angles with the same results from vertical to almost horizontal.

I'm going to try changing point weights tommorrow evening and see what happens.  I've got some 125's, 175's and some 200 grain field points to play with.

In the interim, I thought I'd write a mini-novel here and see what you guys think.      

[vermonster13]

Try the 175s and see what happens. If the spine is slightly weak, less point weight should start showing that.

[cvarcher]

Sounds like you need to cut a bit more arrow length off to stiffen the shaft. Try 29 even first. Heavier heads will also weaken the spine( wrong direction) . Or if your bow arm is locked straight try a slight bend in it.

[Bird Dog]

I think I'm missing something. If the shaft is kicking left how is the arrow ending up to the right.

I've seen the tail of very weak spined arrows move well left upon release as they bend around the bow and end up in the target much as you describe. If you don't see a big improvement with the 175 you should with the 125s.

[Curtis Haden]

Okay, the answer is... Form.  Probably... LOL!

As to the point weight, I was shooting 150 grain field points, with a 50 grain weight adapter.  The only lighter field points I had to try were 125's.  I don't know that 25 grains would make a lot of difference, and when I loaded em up and shot them, I saw the exact same results.

I say the same, but there was one small difference.  I believe I was misinterpreting the "kick" I mentioned earlier.  After watching several arrows fly tonight, I think the kick is to the right, and the arrows are still hitting nock right.

So... I took a couple pics of a group I shot right after I warmed up tonight.  15 yards, three fletched, one bare shaft.  The bare shaft is straight in line with where I was shooting from, and you can see the fletched shafts are obviously NOT.

I had my daughter snap a full-draw pic for me.  I don't think it's worth a whole lot on its own, but maybe someone will pick up on something anyway.

 
 
 

I think I must be torqueing the bow, or rolling the string, or something that's causing the arrows to kick.  I don't know.  Just have to keep working...  The fact that the bare shafts are fairly straight is interesting, but like I said in the original post, I've tried several different feather orientations, and I really don't think they're deflecting off the riser.

I shot several groups with the bare shaft mixed in, and for the most part, it was impacting pretty dang close.  Still not getting any left hits with the bare shaft.  If I didn't hit my group, it was 4 or 5 inches right, but most times it was just as pictured.

Maybe I can manage to get some video up here eventually.

[JBiorn]

*taking notes*

[vermonster13]

Have you tried shooting into a different target?

[Curtis Haden]

David, I have tried different targets, AND I've shot other bow/arrow combos into the block 4x4 without any problems like these.  It's layered foam which is pretty soft as far as target mediums go, plus, I can see the arrows aren't flying straight.

After shooting for quite a while this afternoon, I'm about convinced it's something small, simple, and quite annoying that I'm doing wrong.

[O.L. Adcock]

Curtis, Sounds like you are doing pretty good and shooting very good groups.

Sounds like you are leaning toward making some changes to correct the "kicks" you are seeing and some have recommended cutting the shafts some more. Don't do that until you verify with point weight!

Form problems makes your groups bigger....Spine problems makes the arrows group somewhere other then where they are "pointed". Fletched shafts will only be off a little bit while bare shafts or wide broadheads will be off further depending on the problem....At least from the photos you are shooting too close to the target to seperate the two. Back up to the point you can barely keep all your fletched shafts on the block. Then start mixing in bare shafts. You are looking for "averages" so don't shoot 4 fletched and 1 bare, 3 and 3 would be better...."One" of anything tells you nothing cause you can get lucky once. The bare shaft being being "straight" doesn't tell you anything either as the best shooters with the best form, well tuned, can't shoot shafts "straight"..

If you are barely keeping the fletched shafts on the cube, if you have a tuning problem, you are going to miss the cube with bare shafts with some of them. Which way is going to tell you whats wrong. Verify with point weight! Don't second guess what the bare shafts are telling you no matter what you "see" in flight or what angle they stick. Want to skip the bare shaft part? Wide fletched broadheads will tell you the same thing. My guess on your discription of your initial tuning...Is you are a bit overspined and they are going "right" cause of shelf/window contact. Make sure your arrow nocks aren't too tight, that'll cause confusing quirks also. Your doing good and getting close! Back up to finish it off.   ....O.L.

[aromakr]

Curtis:
I think part of your problem is that "Deerskin" glove they are very hard to get a clean release with, try a tab with a slick surface or powder that deerskin well with baby powder. I've seen a lot of people using that glove with the same problem your experiencing.
Bob

[O.L. Adcock]

I was going to mention that Bob too!    Back when I was a pup I shot with a glove cause my hero Fred B. shot with a glove. I tried tabs and they seemed awkward. Later after joining a good size archery club I noticed ALL the best shooters shot tabs and they kept telling me if I wanted to shoot better, ditch the glove...It took a while but I finally got tired of getting my butt beat and switched. My scores jumped 25% in just a week or so. It took some getting use to but once you do, you'll find the tab less hassle and more "natural" then a glove. There are many kinds and all have their pros and cons so a person needs to find one that suits them. Even then most need small modifications again to suit the individule. I've used Saunders "PacTabs" going on 30+ years. I sew on a leather backing and ditch the screws. I tie on the finger seperator so it doesn't fall off the pins. A big mistake folks make with tabs is they try to use ones that are too large. Trimmed 1/2 way between the finger tips and first knuckle is all you need. The string won't hit your fingers. I'm sure other tabs would work fine if I took the time to get used to them....O.L.

[Curtis Haden]

Well I tried a Bateman tab tonight.  The results were encouraging.  I still think my arrows are a bit on the "weak" side.  Probably still have some work to do tuning, BUT, with my original setup of 29.5" arrow and 200 grains up front, I was getting very good groups and visually perfect arrow flight.

I lost my one bare shaft to a monster brush pile whilst shooting from 30 yards.  (right of my target, through the rotten hay bale backstop, and skipped through the yard off into the impenetrable thicket)    

I was convinced last night that my flight problems were shooter, rather than arrow related, and tonight only reinforces that belief.

A heartfelt thanks to all who posted advice

   

[Rod Jenkins]

FWITW,

 Look at the way your glove is twisted...looks like you may be torqueing the string....makes it tough to get consistant bare shaft results.
The string hand needs to be relaxed and inline with the string.

Ohh yeah...O.L's right about the tab  

[Terry Green]

What Rod said about the glove being twisted...you may be torquing the string.

I think you need to fix that whether you shoot a glove or a tab.  Glove or Tab I believe is a personal preference, and wont make or break a shot if one suits you better....HH shot a glove, and so does Ron trick shot LaClair, and Byron Ferguson I believe.

I can shoot a tab or bare fingers if need be, but prefer a glove, cause I can't keep up with a tab.  

[joebuck]

Arrow to stiff.
Shoot longer arrow
or Heavier pt
or Higher Brace Height
or smaller string
or raise your shelf rug a matchstick

[O.L. Adcock]

I hear you Terry!    These PacTabs, I lose them before I wear them out. Never cared for calf hair, they wear out too quick. Cordovan is good but will develop a grove fairly quick. Most tabs you can buy 2 or 3 of them for the cost of 1 good glove. A tab once you get used to it you'll forget it's even there. With a glove you can't pick your nose or scratch any place good or opperate a zipper! All important things to consider!   ....O.L.

[Terry Green]

OL....you aint tried the right glove!!!!!

Get one that you can sling your hand downward, and your fingers are free!!!!!!!!

American Leathers Big Shot is what I use. One quick sling and my fingers are free.  

BTW...you gotta pick your nose and pee BEFORE you get on stand.   :D

[Curtis Haden]

Well, as I said before, I certainly appreciate all the good advice and comments.  One of the things that sets the "Gang" apart, is the sincerely helpful people here, rather than the sanctimonious, know it all attitudes which are so prevalent on other forums.

I used the Bateman (cordovan) tab exclusively tonite, and although I had some occasional fliers, the groups were good, and arrow flight was very good as well.  One of the reasons I switched back to the glove from this tab originally, was noise.  I think I need to trim my tab a bit.  I hear a "slapping" noise quite often when shooting the tab.  I think its from the excess leather/layers out past my fingertips, as the string passes.  My bow is VERY quiet with the glove.

I also think I tend to pinch the nock when shooting with the glove.  If anything, my arrow nocks are on the loose side, and I probably tend to over-compensate by "gripping" the nocks with my fingers.  The Bateman tab I use has a "no-pinch" finger seperater which helps.  Even though the pressure between the nock and the string nocking point is surely sufficient to hold it, I did manage to dry-fire a bow once-upon-a-time by drawing the string off the nock.

Rod:  I noticed the twist in the glove picture as well.  I think the picture is a little deceptive, as I checked, and the leather across the back is a little twisted even with an open, relaxed hand.  More of a poorly sewn glove than anything, but what you said could very easily be correct!  My fingers do look a little out of line with my wrist, but then again, that looks like Al Delvecio's nose to me as well!!!        

Bed time now, maybe more tomorrow after I shoot again.  Thanks Bob, David, Rod, Terry, O. L. and All!!!

Curtis

[joebuck]

Curtis you stated  "Your arrows kick right when shot..?? to me sounds weak.I would suggest you go to Easton Tuning Guide at their site...I think there is some confusion here on point impact versus nock impact.Easton recommends group of 3 results.....Bowjackson.com has charts...unfletched Weak will impact point right versus fletched...I would suggest paper tune..Weak shaft will show point right and flething tear left through paper about 2-3 feet infront of bow...good luck

[O.L. Adcock]

Joebuck, there might be some confusion as many aren't aware there is 2 kinds of "bare shaft" tuning methods, one is the "kick" which is no different then paper tuning, the other is the "planing" method. About 400 things besides spine will cause an arrow to kick or get a bad tear that's NOT spine related. Causes a lot of confusion and a poor method IMO for finger shooters..Not much better with mechical releases....O.L.