Shooting down from stand

[doublewhopper]

I have only taken one shot from my stand with my recurve and my arrow went over the deers back by a few feet.  

What changes when you take a downward shot with traditional archery?  How do you compensate for the lack of paradox?

[NoCams]

Draw your bow in the upright posistion and then bend over at the waist, keep the , " T " form in your upper body. What you did was most likely lowered your bow shoulder instead of bending at the waist. Number one cause of shooting high out of the tree. I am no expert for sure, but this is what I have been told.

nocams

[Scott J. Williams]

NoCams is correct, bending at the waist is the best method.  I have another idea to add, when shooting at game from an elevated position, you will see far more of the other side of the animal, in other words you see the spine, and the off side.  

This can make the target area appear to be wider than it really is.  Most people will not focus on the side nearest to them, and not pick the spot.  Couple this with a tendency to shoot way to fast and you have the high arrow syndrone.  

In addition to bending at the waist, I have begun to make my self hold after I find the spot I intend to hit,  an extra count and one half.  My high shots have almost completely disappeared.

Barry Wensel once said, "when you encounter game, and the shot is rushed, the tendency is to shoot high'.

I think Mr. Wensel is right on target with that.  I might suggest more practice at the height you will be hunting.  I find the more I practice from an elevated position, the more confidence I have, and the less likely my shots to go astray.  

Seems like everytime I think I have figured this game out, some stupid deer comes by and makes a ass out of me.....I hope your next shot will be spot on!

[cvarcher]

Canting is very important here too.if your right handed and your high miss went also to the left your canting the bow will correct this

[NoCams]

Every deer that I missed or made amarginal shot on was HIGH !!! I totally agree with what Scott Williams said too about picking the near side spot and not rushing the shot. I also think when they are close like that and the angle is steep we have a tendency to , " peek ", which also causes a high miss. We just cannot wait to get the shot off because our computer says, " it is close just get on with it, easy shot. " Shot a 3D course this year and the shots were really close on average, but I know that I could have scored much higher if I would not have peeked and rushed those, " easy shots ". Shot several 8's that would have been 10's if I just slowed down a little.

Concentrate on bending the waist, you will find it is not that easy, especially if you are are little thicker in the waist like I am !!! Gotta lay off them cookies !!! You will definitely feel different from normal if you are doing it right. It is much easier to do the wrong thing and just drop your bow shoulder, trust me I know.    

nocams

[joebuck]

Guys I'm lost here with "Bending at the waist" analogy. I can't seem to understand the mechanics how that corrects anything. But each his own...

Doublewhooper...Deer crouch down to run on hearing bow noise. Some say it's 4-10"..Thats a factor

Target is smaller when elevated.....I only hunt 10-12 feet...Makes a huge difference in getting me a bigger target

Lastly we have the tendency to "setup" high to begin with. Meaning we hurry the shot and never set our bow arm at correct elevation. If you set draw, then this is a huge culprit.

Good luck.. my cheat trick is stack the deer on top of the arrow with some daylight!?....you'll know when this happens and it will all come together.

[Scott J. Williams]

Joebuck,

     It is not a big deal when hunting from the height you hunt, but when you increase the height to fifteen feet or higher, the tendency is to draw from an erect position, in fact you are over drawing and healing the bow. That will cause the arrow to go higher.  When you bend at the waist you don't extend your draw more than normal, therefore the shot is not altered from the same machanics you use when shooting on level ground, and as stated so well above, you won't be so likely to peek.

While I won't debate the issue here, sometimes you need to get higher.

Oh! by the way Joebuck, not everyone shoots a gap.

[JBiorn]

I think that just like shooting a rifle downhill, it will always shoot high. This is one of the big reasons we had a spotter to help with the aiming. Now, gravity works, yes. But when shooting down the eye has a tendency to judge the target closer than it really is. Not only that but ballistically speaking, the projectile will gain altitude naturally depending upon descent angle. The angles around 45 degrees are the worst ones for gaining. between the angles of 30 and 50 degrees, one really should expect the projectile to hit high. Anything less and it is like shooting at the range, and anything more is likely very close anyway. If not close straight down---then it will fall at gravity.

 Stand at a narrow gap. Throw a rock at the other side at ground level, then throw a rock at something 20ft down the other side----you will see how your eye perceives the distance.

 Just a thought from a Special Warfare guy.

[rnharris]

hey Joebuck i have shot over 5 deer this year with traditional equipment but have taken 100 with compounds over 20 years and a deer can drop the length of their hoof to the first joint of their leg usually about 10" plus in 400 hundreths of a second all they are doing is loosing weight to push off to get out of there from a noise they heard when the bow is shot.
bending at the waist keeps the geometry of the shot intact it is critical to bend try this when you get in your stand draw your bow and don't bend at the waist and then bend and see what happens to your anchor and shot hope this helped have a good one Ralph

[NDTerminator]

Very good advice and observations. I can add that from an elevated stand or position shooting I purposely hold a bit lower than the spot I pick to hit.  Worst case is a low miss which is better than a high marginal hit any day. A low miss is rare though, most often the deer drops right into the hit...

[eagle24]

Well I'll chime in on shooting from an elevated stand.  First, bending at the waist does make a difference, at least for me.  I'm not sure I can explain why and what it causes or corrects, but IMO it has more to do with the sight picture and where my brain thinks the arrow is going.

Bottom line IMO:  If you do not practice from an elevated stand (close to same height) you will struggle shooting from one when you hunt.  If you shoot enough from an elevated stand you can form your own opinion regarding bending at the waist or not.  Why would you not practice the exact (or as close too) scenario you will have when you are hunting?  If you hunt from the ground shoot from the ground, but if you are going to climb a tree, I would suggest at least 4-5 hundred shots from a treestand before the season (I've shot that many in the last week).  You will be surprised what it will do for your shooting and confidence.

[rnharris]

the reason for my misses not practicing at 18 20 ft high i am gonna look below the deer my next opportunity deer are amazingly fast going down!

[joebuck]

Sorry guys, I'm still not buying it. All bending at the waist does is cause one to cant his bow over more. Which rotates the arrow shelf over which in turn rolls the arrow from 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock...Yes ,it will lower your shot some but will throw some additional paradox to the arrow. Plus your head posture ( tilt) will have to change which could affect your nocking reference on your face maybe.

You can try this on the ground and see how it affects your arrow flight at 20 yards.
I just didn't come up with this analogy....I have been doing this since 89'solely...no gun...no compound....just traditional...The center part of your bow grip is your fulgram..Your arrow is resting 1-2.5" ( depending on the bow) over this fulgram. When you start leaning the bow over.....your leaning your arrow over too, Now the dymanics of your arrow and instinctive sight picture have changed....

ScottJ  ....Drawing while standing erect will produce Overdrawing the bow?...Man thats a new one....Gap shooting?...instinctive/secondary vision probably...but not gap...

I just don't agree it good advise to tell someone just bend at the waist to fix a high shot. It's more variables to consider. Mainly deer is dropping. That drop is more extended the further you shoot out at him given varibles like how calm he is versus how spooked he is...yada yada

RNHarris........100 deer in 20 years!.....You must know Gilbert Peel....

Heres my typical shot stance in a tree which I practice alot and is the same body posture as flat ground. I made that bow 10 years ago and haven't changed anything with my setup except a BH every now and then. But I will admit, this type of stand is the best for rock solid stance and promotes consistence form


In short...IMO...all bending at the waist does is give you a bigger sight window...maybe theres some secret mojo in that but I wouldn't shoot out of a tree bending over at the waist unless I shot that way on the ground....Flame away   :D  

 

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Joebuck,

They're not talking about crouching over and canting, they're talking about bending toward your bow arm...sort of sideways if you will. The purpose is to keep your upper body perpendicular to your line of sight -- maintaining proper T form.

Really no mojo involved, just stardard age-old archery form.  

[joebuck]

OHHHHHHHH.....so bending over at waist.....well this may be a stupid question...But how do you shoot down if you don't bend over?    
....Unless one is hanging from a trapezz contraption like I am in the above picture.....We all have to bend over at the waist for a close instinctive shot under 20 or so yards....I thought ya'll were telling him to do the "Asbell Stoop Over Stance"

DoubleWhooper...you do tilt over to shoot down don't you  

[NDTerminator]

I shoot with minimal cant, and don't add more when I bend at the waist shoot from an elevated stand or position.  I do use short bows, 52"-58"...

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

joebuck,

You're talking about bending over foreward, as if you were picking up something dropped in front of you. What's being discussed here is bending to the side -- basic archery form for shooting uphill or downhill.

My apologies for mot being able to find an archery-related illustration, but I think you get the idea.


 

[SERGIO VENNERI]

My way of shooting out of a tree stand , without shooting high ,is to simply bend my left knee and that way i still keep everything in perfect line ( I shoot right handed ). Voila ! No overshooting a critter.

[joebuck]

Jason...could you please explain and what's your source for "basic archery form for shooting uphill and downhill"..I have never read about that.  It seems to me all bending at the waist like the young lady is doing will only put your bow what 6-8 inches closer to your target, create an unstable stance in a tree stand, and probably not to safe leaning out over a tree stand platform.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by joebuck:
Jason...could you please explain and what's your source for "basic archery form for shooting uphill and downhill"

Pretty much any respected basic archery instructional text that's been written in the last hundred years or so.