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Author Topic: instinctive or gap?  (Read 3187 times)

Offline The Gopher

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instinctive or gap?
« on: October 03, 2007, 08:04:00 AM »
Hey there, i'm not really new to trad archery but i am starting to take it more seriously. i have always been an instinctive shooter but recently gave gap shooting a try and have found it easy to pick up and accurate. So my question is this. are you folks gap shooters or instinctive shooters and why? Also are there any good books or resources on gap shooting? i know there are some great books on instinctive shooting. thanks, Dan.
"The future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most temporal part of time, for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the present is all lit up with eternal rays." ~C.S. Lewis

Offline Deadbolt

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2007, 12:28:00 PM »
i just started with gap...enjoyed it...so I kept using it.

Offline JRH

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2007, 04:03:00 PM »
Yes! to both... The more I practice gap, the better instinctive shooter I become.  It is not a one or the other proposition for me. H.Hill used both methods to their best advantage.  He shot gap to win an insane amount of tournaments and instinctive method for hunting and tick shooting.
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Offline deermaster1

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2007, 04:28:00 PM »
im an instictive gap shooter. i line things up and concentrate on a perfect gap if theres time but then i can pick a spot and let it fly if neccesary at close range.  longer range and hunting shots are gap only because under pressure when i try instictive, i always release to soon and using a gap method it really makes me anchor and concentrate. also when under pressure, i do not have faith in "looking at the spot only"  i need somthing(the arrowpoint) to use as a referace and assure me everything is lined up and alright... just my .02 worth
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Offline artvin

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2007, 06:25:00 PM »
There is no real thing as "instinctive" shooting. Unless, of course,  you shoot with your eyes closed.  :scared:   If you are simply concentrating on the spot you want to hit. Your subconscious mind is still making the necessary references of arrow alignment to the target. If the brain feels the alignment isn't correct  :knothead:  

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Offline A.S.

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2007, 06:33:00 PM »
I agree with the above comments. I'm an "instinctive gap shooter", if there is such a thing.

Check out the "Master's of the Barebow" video, it will give you some good tips on different shooting methods.

Offline Scott J. Williams

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2007, 07:49:00 PM »
Hill was not an instinctive shooter at all, he wasn't a true gap shooter either.  He described his shooting method as "Split Vision".  He would pick up the tip of the arrow in his secondary vision, while focusing on the spot.  It is very close to what Byron Ferguson does.  Hill would say repeatedly that an instinctive shooter could never be consistant.  

While I on the other hand am an instinctive shooter, I will partially agree with the late Mr. Hill.  I must practice constantly if I am to stay on top of my game.  

I came back to traditional archery because I got sick of sights and range finders..I wanted a system that allowed for rapid response, and  was simple to do.  

To me, if I must develope a gap it requires way too much time..I hold my own when hunting, or against other instinctive shooters in competition.  I can stay close to the gap guys at 3D, but that is a tough system to beat.  In the woods, I often find that I can get into actions faster shooting instinctive.  

I killed a nice hog last year on a running shot at 16 yards.  My fiancee and I were sharing a pop up blind and I was trying to get her a shot. We had just moved the blind and brushed it in, earlier in the afternoon.  We settled in no more than an hour when a sounder of pigs came through. One came to within three feet of the blind, with another passing to the rear about the same distance.  The pig was facing the blind, so Samantha decided, wisely, not to shoot. When the pig decided to leave, it took a wide arc, along the trail that a larger sow, and about twenty other pigs took.  You see, that large sow knew something was wrong, darn these pigs are smart.

When she hit the trail, she was moving low and fast.  I whispered to Samantha asking if she had the shot,  she told me no.  I didn't have a lot of time, I whispered to her as I was drawing, I've got it, I laced that arrow between three sets of trees connecting with a heart shot at 16 yards. That shot could not have been made if I were a gap shooter.  I have made a number of shots like that over the years.  I can't argue that gap shooting iunder most controlled situations more effective, but where and the way I hunt, more times than not, it's look and shoot.  

For all of you gap shooters out there,  I tip my hat to you.  For me, make mine instinctive.
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Offline The Gopher

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2007, 08:39:00 PM »
Thanks for all of your input guys. Are Asbell's books on instictive shooting the best ones out there? Are there any good books on gap shooting? thanks, Dan.
"The future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most temporal part of time, for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the present is all lit up with eternal rays." ~C.S. Lewis

Offline artvin

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2007, 08:52:00 PM »
Don't learn to shoot from Asbell.  His style is his style period.

Here's some strong advise most traditional shooters should take.  Get some good coaching.  Not from a friend that is a pretty good shooter. But, from a qualified archery coach.  Think about this....if a guy like Tiger Woods constantly works with a coach, perhaps we should too.

Most of the advise you will get from other shooters you shoot with is wrong advise and will lead to developing some pretty bad habits.

Asebel is one of the worst to follow.  If you think not get him out on a 3-D course sometime.

Understand that there are some pretty bad shooters out there that take game every year with traditional equipment.  Most are very good hunters and there is a difference between being a guy that can hit a pie plate at 15 yards and a guy that can shoot a 4" group at 30 yards. It's all about proper  shooting form.

Nothing wrong with the pie plate guy.  You have to decide which you want to be. The so called instinctive shooter will have days he can shoot really tight groups and days he can't keep on the pie plate. The gap shooter will be more consistant. Both styles take work, consistant work.

Learning to shoot well isn't about hitting a target. It's about developing proper shooting form that you can duplicate everytime you shoot an arrow.  If it is "right" on your end the arrow will go where you want it to. If it is wrong on your end the arrow 'might' go where you want it to.

Art
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Work is the beginning, the middle and the end of success.

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Online Terry Green

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 08:24:00 AM »
I have to dissagree with a lot of what artvin said.

The very 1st shooting video I ever watched was Asbel's, and I pick up a few things....left some others on the table.

You have to decide what aiming method works best for you and your style...and YOU have to decide that for yourself....and not let someone make it for you that doesn't have a clue as to what method might work for you.

You CAN learn to shoot without a coach.  This sight has proved it over and OVER.  One only needs to actually spend some time on this forum reading to see that many here have improved...and some have GREATLY improved and some even posted their 1st kills.

I learned from watching other people shoot, and watching other videos, and reading books.  Don't let ANYONE tell you you can't be a good shot without a personal coach.

'Instinctive' is only a term used to describe an aiming method.....and was never intended be used as the litteral meaning as most of the old timers I know will tell you.  Trying to dispell instinctive seems to be brought about by those that can't shoot that way, or don't really understand it.  BTW, I am not knocking gap shooting so don't go thinking that.  I couldn't gap shoot my way out of a barn from the inside....but I don't go knocking gap shooters.

Proper alignment is much more important than how you aim IMO.....cause proper alignment will allow you to create shots in the field and execute them with greater accuracy no matter how you aim.
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Offline Yellowsnake

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 09:14:00 AM »
I normally shoot instinctive out to about thirty yards.  After that I like to gap.  Works for me.

Offline DRR324

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 10:21:00 AM »
The more I read about this the more confused I get.  I grab my curve- head up on the roof of my pole barn and shoot.  I've got 5 targets out at different yardages, shoot one arrow at each target, climb down, repeat.  I only concentrate on the spot I want the arrow to go.  I never look at the tip and try to determine where it needs to be to hit my target.  I tried this summer to learn the gap- and shot like a machine gun- spraying and praying.  Am I doing something wrong shooting my way?  I don't think so, I can hold my own with a lot of the guys I shoot with-them shooting compounds.  Should I switch to gap, or learn how to do it??? Or be content that I am confident shooting "instinctive" if thats what it's called?
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Offline deermaster1

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 10:59:00 AM »
your style is your style only.  your style is the easiest to learn....FOR YOU!! throw your ideas out there but dont preach them as the esiest, best, most accurate or most practical because your personal style is just that.  you may use anothers style for you basis but you have, whether you realize it or not, have developed your own personal way and it is the best way for you and you only.  be open but dont preach and thrust your ideas on anyone.
"I dont want my country to do anything for me, I want to do everything I can do for my country"~~~Ted Nugent

Offline Scott J. Williams

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 11:30:00 AM »
As an insturctor of Martial Art, Defensive Tactics for Police, and Certified instructor of Police, I try very hard not to let my opinion get in the way of the facts.  I have stated it time and time again, in regard to shooting a bow, there are things that must be mastered if one is going to be a consistant shot. Unwavering focus on what you want to hit, a push/pull draw with ever expanding back tension through the release, a solid and consistant anchor, and a rock solid bow hand and follow-through. Beyond that, I could not care less if you are a gap shooter, instinctive shooter, gun barrel shooter, three fingers under guy, or whatever.

The things that make my shooting unique include the way I stand, foot position, the way I grip the bow, the degree of cant I use.  Those things might work for you, but most likely won't work for everyone.  

Our bodies are build different, we all have  different genetic compositions and injuries that can force us to shoot slightly differently.  All of these factors will determine to a degree how, or what style we will shoot better. I take pride in what I have obtained, not that I am better than someone else, but because I get better every year(using myself as the gauge for comparison), In other words, I am better than I was a year ago. I learn more everyday, as stated above, sometimes I use what I see, sometimes I don't.  My way is not better for everyone, it is just better for me.

I for one am not comfortable with giving advice lightly.  I want everyone that I provide imput, to benefit and not get more confused.  I can honestly say, that most people that I have assisted in shooting, became a better shot than I am.  I think that is great!  The reason that is great is not because I am something special, it is great because that person will stay in the sport, they will tell others and impart that same knowleged and they will stay.  

On the other hand, if I tell someone that shooting instinctive is the only way to go, and that method is not right for them, they may drop the sport totally.  They may go into the woods and gut shoot an animal.  My ego, what there is left of it, is not worth that kind of result.  

I had spend ten years in target archery, I can tell you right now that most archery coaches have little or no knowlege about gap shooting, or instinctive shooting.  If the bow isn't equiped with a scope or sight they would be lost. Sure they could teach the basics, as I described them above, but anyone could learn those themselves, using videos, a digital camera, and or video camera to check that they are doing what they think they are doing.

Just a few things that I have learned over the years of instructing people in different disciplines.  There are more than one way to skin a cat, you just have to take your time to find the right one for you.  

NUFF SAID.
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Offline John 4

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 01:41:00 AM »
I've always shot what ever worked at the time,,that's gaping or instinctive.
I've bought a number of different books and DVD's on shooting over the years,an two that stand out for me are,"Byron Furgusons book "become the arrow" but I think much of the DVD/VIDIO of the same name.
The one DVD that has struck a real cord with me,"Ricky Welshes Shooting instruction II.
I'm not much into discussing which form is best because we are all different,and I feel we need to find a system or form that works for us as inderviduals.
Good luck.

Offline oneshot1

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 06:44:00 AM »
Sorry I dont know of any book's or DVD's, I have'nt a clue what "gap aiming" is...hehee...Everyones body is different and changes over time, get some instruction and read up for sure, but YOU have to shoot those 10,000 arrows and it would be nice to be confident and comfortable that they are going to hit what their aimed at, so get a system that's repeatable. Just because your form isnt "perfect" doesnt mean it's "wrong", it's yours....

Offline shamus

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2007, 10:41:00 PM »
I instinctively gap shoot. I'm aware of the gap, but I don’t take an exact measurement. How could I? A ruler? A tape measure?  :)  I hold the bow vertical to consistently dial in my horizontal. From there it's simply a matter of finding the right elevation. My elevation is determined by a combination of visually referencing the gap and feeling the elevation of the bow arm. This explanation is more complex than the actual process itself.

Offline rdoggsilva

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2007, 01:27:00 AM »
I shoot instinctively also but I started out 36 years ago. One thing I have found out and all these years it takes comentment and shooting everyday (if you can). But age can start taking a toll. Where I could shoot 50 arrows a day now it is 20 to 25 before my 59 year old back starts to give out. To many years in the oil fields or refiners. Just do what works for you by trial and error. But the most important thing to remember is have fun doing it.

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2007, 11:27:00 AM »
I remember cleaning out my grandparent's basement after my grandfather passed away. Aside from a truck load of bowhunting equipment, there were several dozen trophys and metals from various tournaments he'd won over the years. If he were still alive today, I think he'd get a good chuckle out of being told that an instinctive shooter couldn't excell both in the field and on the shooting line.

He obviously knew what style of shooting worked best for him. I primarily gap shoot for the same reason; it works best for me. Everyone needs to make that same decision for themselves.

Offline BLACK WOLF

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Re: instinctive or gap?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2007, 04:47:00 AM »
"Are you folks gap shooters or instinctive shooters and why?"

I aim using Gap, Point of Aim and Instinctive depending on the shot and the situation

If the shot requires a quick shot I'll use Instinctive aiming.

If I have time I will Gap instinctively or as some say Instinctive Gap or Gapstinctive  ;)

If the target is close to 90yrds. or further I will use Point of Aim.

If you want to learn how to aim Instinctively don't pay any attention those that say there is no such thing...their obviously clueless when it comes to that particular aiming techinique.

Ray  ;)

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