instinctive or gap?

[SteveMcD]

I Gap with a high anchor. Works for me....
 

[NDTerminator]

Originally posted by Terry Green:

You have to decide what aiming method works best for you and your style...and YOU have to decide that for yourself....and not let someone make it for you that doesn't have a clue as to what method might work for you.

You CAN learn to shoot without a coach.  This sight has proved it over and OVER.  One only needs to actually spend some time on this forum reading to see that many here have improved...and some have GREATLY improved and some even posted their 1st kills.

I learned from watching other people shoot, and watching other videos, and reading books.  Don't let ANYONE tell you you can't be a good shot without a personal coach.

'Instinctive' is only a term used to describe an aiming method.....and was never intended be used as the litteral meaning as most of the old timers I know will tell you.  Trying to dispell instinctive seems to be brought about by those that can't shoot that way, or don't really understand it.  BTW, I am not knocking gap shooting so don't go thinking that.  I couldn't gap shoot my way out of a barn from the inside....but I don't go knocking gap shooters.

Proper alignment is much more important than how you aim IMO.....cause proper alignment will allow you to create shots in the field and execute them with greater accuracy no matter how you aim.

Very well said.

I lterally re-taught myself to shoot barebow with the posted help of those such as Terry, JC, LBR, ect.  No coach per-se, but a lot of trial & error, analyzing, and typing.

Hope I don't kick anyone's puppy here, but the biggest mistake I made was watching Fred Bear's hunting videos as instructive rather than entertainment, and trying to emulate his method.
His snap shooting, big cant style worked well for him, but was a disaster for me.  Set me back months trying to master it and I never came close.

The best video I've watched so far in regard to executing the shot is Dead On Traditional by Scott Antzak(except for his "Fingers Of Steel Death Two Under" hold at full draw with an 80# Hatfield!!!). Although I haven't yet seen it, I understand Masters Of The Barebow
is one of, if not the best video to watch & learn from.  I hope to get a copy for my birthday in November.

Alignment is everything. Once a guy gets this figured out, executing the shot literally falls  into place overnight.  You'll get so you know that arrow is going downtown or south the instant you release it.

A device that really helped me advance is the SRF Sight. I don't have them on my bows now as I found once the sight pictures are in the shoulder mounted computer, I didn't need them and it was actually easier to shoot w/o them.
Still, I would put one back on in an instant, and have absolutely no beef with the guys who use them as a stand alone system.  I highly recommend the SRF Sight as a training tool or stand alone Trad sight.


For the record, like many who have posted all ready, I'm an "Instincti-Gap" shooter.  I shoot Three Under, set my bows up with elevated rests, and use vanes rather than feathers.

 As always, thanks for the insight, Terry...

[30coupe]

I agree with Terry! I watched Master's of the Barebow and frankly the explanation of gap shooting made my head spin. By the time I did all the calculations the critter would either have left or died of old age. Whatever method you use, practice is the key.

[fleetus]

I've been involved in several gap/instinctive/shoot'er when she feels right discussions and can say the biggest problem is people who can't or won't understand that different strokes are for different folks.  Some people try gap and can't make it work.  Some people shoot instinctive horribly, then learn gap and become great shots.  Everyone has a different brain, different body and different experiences.  All those mean that no two traditional shooters shoot exactly the same way.  

I shoot instinctive, but, if I struggled with it and needed to try something different, I wouldn't shy away from someone trying to teach me gap or some other system.  

I like the attitude on this board whereby people seem to be tolerant of various methods and share information without hesitation.

[Quill Flinger]

I've had this discussion many times before.
Ever throw a baseball through a tire? Throw it right into the glove? How'd ya aim it? You just looked at your target & let 'er rip.
Same thing with instinctive shooting. Concentrate on a single tiny spot. With time & experience your mind can do all the same "calculations" with the bow & arrow that it can with a baseball. I've shot the opposite way instinctively, still do. I've shot in the pitch black at a laser dot on a target butt.
But regardless of what method you use, it still boils down to "focus" & "concentration" (assuming of course, good form).
To learn purely instinctive shooting, it really helps to visualize. Focus on the spot, concentrate & imagine the arrow flying directly to that spot before you even draw the bow. Never let your eyes wander from that spot or lose focus. When you have made a good shot, stop & close your eyes & "feel" the shot again, soak it all in. It takes practice, lots of it, & if you shoot with your dominate eye, it will be more difficult. As your eyes always wants to line up the arrow instead of focusing on the spot.

Focus
Concentrate
Visualize

Good for all styles!

[Alsea]

When you're throwing baseballs through tires, do you just count the times it goes in the hole, or do you also count the times it hits the tire and do you count when it misses the tire too?

Doesn't the glove also come to the ball, or have I just been seeing things?

If ball throwing is instinctive, does that mean that all arms are equal?

If one doesn't have particularly well developed eyesight and hand/eye coordination, can one acquire it by becoming the ball?

What about all those Trad folks in the beachers that didn't make the ball team? Can they awaken latent subconscious shooting talent by emulating the various trick shooting authors?

I think not.


On the other hand, if you first learn form (how to shoot the bow) and then learn gap, shots in the field will become automatic. Adjustments will be made quickly, unconsciously and you stand a good chance of punching your tag with regularity.

An interesting thing about the gap/split vision aiming method is that once the talent is acquired, it doesn't take shooting a bunch arrows on a daily basis to keep it honed, but it does require a precise range estimating system. That may be what a lot of folks stub their toes on. Acquiring a reliable and laser quick method of estimating yardage takes a lot of diligence. A gap shooter can start cold and if he has a good idea of the yardage, the first arrow will strike within inches of where he wants it to.

One of my favorite things to do now, when I can't be hunting, is to shoot my recurve with compounders. I dearly love to walk up to a line of c-bow shooters, pick an arbitrary target butt, say 50 yards, sink an arrow into the bull and then shoot the 35, 20, 25, etc, with similar results and with no warm up. Suddenly, thanks to ingrained shooting form and gap aiming, I'll find myself the center of an admiring circle of guys whose curiosity and respect I have aroused with my marksmanship. I usually offer them the opportunity to shoot my bow, but as a rule, there are no takers. In the days before I learned to gap there was no way that I could do that. I focused on a spot and hoped to God that the angle was right, but I really didn't know for sure until after the arrow was loosed. If the first arrow missed, I'd make an adjustment and the second arrow usually was a lot better. Any of you guys know that feeling?

Gap aiming, once mastered, is there to serve you and it doesn't take hours and hours of diligent practice to maintain it.

This year I hunted elk 18 days straight and didn't shoot an arrow until I shot my bull at 31 yards. Last year was about the same number of days, only it was 22 yards. I'm so focused on hunting, there's no time for practice, but with the gap method, there's no need to keep the edge accutely honed, nor do I need to be within 10 paces in order to be confident. Give me a break, even Tred Barta can kill moose at 6 paces...lol!

That's all I know.

[Terry Green]

" it doesn't take shooting a bunch arrows on a daily basis to keep it honed" ...Neither does instinctive.  But both take a lot of arrows to learn...ya can't improve by not doing something....and once you do learn, it don't take much to keep the rust off.

"walk up to a line of c-bow shooters, pick an arbitrary target butt, say 50 yards, sink an arrow into the bull and then shoot the 35, 20, 25, etc, with similar results and with no warm up."....Done that too, but started at 80 yards....yep, instinctive.

"Gap aiming, once mastered, is there to serve you and it doesn't take hours and hours of diligent practice to maintain it."...Yep, same with instinctive.

"nor do I need to be within 10 paces in order to be confident. " ...Neither do I, an instinctive shooter, and neither do all the instinctive shooting bowhunters I hunt with. Sorry, but instinctive shooting doesn't have a 10 or 20 yard limit.  Alway amaizes me that that limit is set by non-instinctive shooters.

Again, some of those that can't do it like to discount the instinctive aiming method....I can't gap shoot, but I don't go around trying to discount it because it does work for folks, and who am I to tell them it doesn't just because I can't?  Nor will I make false implications about gap shooting. ...nor will I let anyone make false implications about instinctive.

[Kingstaken]

Gotta disagree with Artvin & A.S.
This whole thing that once to learn to shoot instinctively, it's no longer instinctive is nonsense.
IMHO most guys are under bowed which requires them to gap shoot because there becomes too much required assesment for shot placement for instinctive shooting.
Bare bow tape has most guys shooting what -  45lbs or less? Not that there is anything wrong, it just requires much more time to learn to shoot instinctively with a light bow.
And yes todays gap shooter's shooting for a 12 ring on a 3d target will mostly outshoot a instinctive shooter, but instintinctive shooters dont shoot so they can hit a 12 ring, a 4" to 6" ring or lung/heart shoot is what we aim to hit.
Just shoot ya own way and make your shot.

[Alsea]

Sorry if I touched a nerve there Terry, I didn't mean to denigrate anyone's choice of method, the goal should be whatever suits your fancy. I was just echoing what is routinely posted on the boards by instinctive shooters themselves.

Much more important than whatever aiming method is used, is the teaching and acquisition of repeatable form. Without that, it doesn't matter how you aim. Until you know what a shot should feel like, you're just floundering around willy-nilly. Unfortunately, that is what I see a lot of.

I think many have been charmed away from the classic approach toward shooting form by charismatic and romantically dressed heroes that the average guy doesn't have a prayer of emulating. It works well for some physically gifted and highly motivated individuals, but it doesn't seem to be rubbing off on the rest, at least not so you"d notice (grin).

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Alsea:

Much more important than whatever aiming method is used, is the teaching and acquisition of repeatable form. Without that, it doesn't matter how you aim.  (grin).

I couldnt' agree more....that's why I talk more about proper alignment than anything else.

Ya didn't hit a nerve...no worries.  Just correcting indigenously posts about instinctive aiming.  Those that can't shoot that way seem to claim all sorts of stuff, and often parrot the falsehoods that they have heard.

[J-dog]

I am at work now so I cant chime in much but I enjoyed this thread.

Know this is not a gun site so Terry zap this away of needed be but I think it pertains to the thread and bow shooting.

People see me bird hunting or bow shooting and ask how I aim or lead targets-how far ahead do you lead?? how do you aim?? I say this as I think I shoot bows alot like a shotgun (w/out the pattern!)

Honest answer is I dont know? truly! am I gap shooting? instinctive shooting? dont know-I am 34 now and been hunting and shooting since I could walk-Dad taught me how toi shoot guns-I taught myself how to shoot bows. I can hold my own-not the best not the worst-but it just boils down to what works for you and getting out on your range and putting arrows on target.

I will say this is you are having a bad day (like we all do) give it up. And I like shooting one arrow at a time at a target. The FIRST arrow I let loose that day is the most important arrow/as that would have been a hunting shot.

Later yall be safe and shoot straight

Jason

[BLACK WOLF]

Without good form there rarely is any consistant accuracy.

Without a good aiming techinique there rarely is any consistant accuracy.

Both form and aiming are very important in developing and achieving consistant accuracy.

As far as which one is more important...I would say they are about equal in regards to achieving consistant accuracy...but I would suggest an archer learn good form first so that the aiming aspect can be learned easier.

Ray  

[Terry Green]

Good post Black Wolf....

Aiming IS important, no doubt....and IS important as form...BUT!...having proper alignment and perfect form means nothing if you don't have the aiming METHOD that works best for YOU.  Whether you aim subconsiously or consiously(which ever suits you best)....is not as important as form and proper alignment.

Proper forum and alignment is more important than HOW you aim....and the aiming method that suits you best will serve you best.....but ya still gotta aim.  Proper form and aligment means nothing if you don't aim at all.

Zat make sense?

[Terry Green]

"away from the classic approach toward shooting form"

I've tried to convey that you CAN take the classical approach to shooting form, AND incorporate that you can take that form to the classical positions of bowhunters.....that form is a constant, that can be taken with you and allow you to manufacture shots in the field that are not classical positions on the target butt.

That once you have proper form and alignment, the aiming method that works for you, and your equipment tuned to the max...there is nothing you can't do with a trad bow.......cant, terrain, position will not dictate the shot...YOU will dictate the shot by taking your shot with you.  Motivation? you bet! No matter your ability...this sport aint for the lazy if you want to be successful.

The power of positive thinking is much more productive than the drain of negative thinking.

[BLACK WOLF]

Couldn't agree with your more Terry!  

Ray  

[BLACK WOLF]

Look up the word 'instinctive'.

Oh wait...I'll do it for you  

Merriam Webster

Instinctive - 1 : of, RELATING to, or being instinct
2 : prompted by natural instinct OR PROPENSITY : arising spontaneously

As I said....Instinctive as it relates to aiming a barebow is 'instinct like'. It DOES NOT have to BE an instinct. It REALATES to an instinct because the aiming process is similar to how an instinct is mediated...which is mediated below the conscious level.

An archer, who aims instinctively, does NOT conciously use any reference points to adjust their aim like all the other aiming techiniques do, which is what basically seperates it from the others and is why it was given a seperate name to define it.

Ray