Holding time question

[BobCo 1965]

I've always heard that you should should be able to hold your bow at full draw for at least the count of ten. If you can not you are overbowed. I've kind of followed this rule for a while but am really starting to seriously question it.

Any opinions???

[MI_Bowhunter]

Personlly I don't think about hold time.   I only hold until I to anchor and get the sight picture I want.  depending on the shot that could be 1 second or 10.

I can hold a bow that is way to over poundage for me for ten seconds.   I can't do it easily but I can for several shots.   I won't be able to hit anything consistently but I can hold it.

I started with a bow that was too heavy for me (60#).     I could hold it but I would start getting pain in my elbows and shoulder.    I could still hold it if I had to but I couldn't hit anything with it.

[Terry Green]

No, I don't agree with the 10 second/over bowed statememt...just another broad brush statement that is not written in stone.

Holding for 10 seconds?...I guess I could do that with some of my bows just fine, never needed to, or felt I needed to.  Sounds like something a compound shooter would do.

[longbowben]

That quote is from byron fergison,im way overbowed.  :eek:

[John 4]

I think it's a good test.
In my club we have around 10 stickbow shooters and I'd say 7 of them couldn't hold for 5 seconds without going to pieces.
They also just happen to be the same guys that can't shoot to save themselves.
If you want to train to be a snap shooter,go ahead "overbow yourself.
If you want to be able to address every possible situation,"get a bow you can shoot.

[jrchambers]

did he say hold it or hold it and shoot as well as you can with a reasonble hold.  i shoot 67# and when im doing a bit of shooting it becomes efortless,  ive tried to hold for ten seconds and i can but that long of constant stress quickly reduces focus, the same thing happens when i hold back my 45lber.  i think if you can smoothly draw back your pounds come to anchor and make a concentrated realease, taking into acount being able to do this enough times to become proficient, you are fine.  i dont see the need to ever hold 10 seconds.  that means you have to be able to predict a animals behavior up to 10 seconds in the future.  i practice drawing with arow already pointing where i want to shoot, pull, touch, leter fly.

[mike g]

Reach anchor and hiold as long as it takes to concentrate on your spot and let loose....
    For me sometimes it's as soon as I hit anchor, I concentatre on the spot the hole time that I draw the bow....

[Scott J. Williams]

When I rush my shot, it in most cases will be high.  I think you should take as long as need, as stated above.

Holding a longtime, is relative, a two count may be a a "life time", or two seconds may be quick for some.

This idea that in order to shoot instinctive you must let her rip as soon as the string hits your anchor point is so much "balderdash!"  It is responsible for a lot of people "snap shooting", which is shooting before they reach anchor, or short drawing.  

Instinctive shooting still requires three things, true, the more you do them, in most cases the faster they can be executed, however speed is not the motivation, or should not be.  

One, identify the location you wish to hit. Two, through experience, meaning you have shot this distance before and the brain is programed, you begin the physical part of the shot, the drawing.  Three, you reach anchor and the two processes have been completed, the melding of the physical, the conscience thought, and subconscience come together to solidify that the hand is pointing in the right place, remember, shooting instinctive is nothing more than pointing.  This process may take a couple of seconds, not to mention that most instinctive shooters shoot better when rested mentally, and physically fresh.  

Call it muscle memory, mental exercise, or whatever.  Get these together first, get settled into the shot, and the rest will take care of itself.

 It is a work in progress, I hope I explained my process in a way that can be understood.  What have we to gain, if we shoot fast and miss?  You will find in time that the process gets faster, not because we are seeking it, but because that is the way it works.

[BLACK WOLF]

Very well said, Scott.

Ray  

[Matt E]

Holding a selfbow back will ruin it.I feel that the shot is made before the bow is drawn.Drawing and releasing the arrow should be a natural, rhythmic procedure with a feeling of complete confidence. Their is an exception and this is with modern bows. Modern bows can stand the stress of holding them back. If you feel you can't shoot well, use sights and use a light poundage bow that you can hold back.

[BobCo 1965]

I can hold a bow that is way to over poundage for me for ten seconds. I can't do it easily but I can for several shots. I won't be able to hit anything consistently but I can hold it.

If I read this correctly, a person can be overbowed, even if he/she can hold for 10 seconds. I'd assume from the quote that a person should be able to hold back >10 seconds in order to not be overbowed. Correct?

************************************************

The reason I started this topic is because I believe there are benefits in shooting a bow that is heavier in weight even if you can not hold steadily for 10 seconds (that is as long as a person is not short drawing or struggling getting to full draw). Personally, I can't hold my 70# bow back 10 seconds STEADILY, however, I can shoot it just as accurately as my 50 pound bows which I can (but don't) hold for 10 seconds.

I think that the 10 second rule maybe a very good starting point for a person just starting out though.

[Scott J. Williams]

BobCo 1965,

I cannot speak to self bows, but I can state for a fact that a person, depending on his or her skill, can shoot very well with a bow that is heavier than they can hold back for ten seconds.  

I can also state for a fact that doing so causes more people, far  more problems than shooting a bow that they can hold back for five to ten seconds, or at least a lighter bow.  

I have been around this sport for over forty years and I can tell you that most of the target panic, freezing, or whatever you want to call it comes from, all too often, shooting way-too-much poundage.  

Many of us get this idea that unless we shoot what "Howard Hill" shot we are not men. I remember when I was in the service, there was a group of longbowmen in Alabama who had a club, if you were not shooting 90lbs, you were a wimp.  I hate to say it, but there are still a lot of that going around.

I find a few people shoot better with higher weights, they say, because of perceived release problems, you know I can get off the string better...they do for a while, then short drawing, snap shooting and then the "panic" can set in.  

Shooting heavy bows takes time, and conditioning.  I believe that if it is done correctly, anyone can learn to shoot reasonably well ten to fifteen pounds heavier within a short period of time.  My question is why?  The heavier I go, the heavier my arrow has to be, the trade off equals more work for the same result.  If we were talking compounds, we go heavier and shoot lighter, not so with stickbows we need that extra energy to get the job done.

I just sold my last 70 pound bow, I shot it great, I just didn't need that kind of weight for the hunting and shooting I was doing. I now shoot 60 down to 52 pounds and loving it.  

I guess it all comes down to the fact that we all have our own ideas of what works for us.  I have made about every mistake a man can make in this game.  When I am asked to mentor someone new to archery or traditional archery I keep those mistakes in mind, to make it easier for them. Make no mistake about it, you may be he exception, there are always exceptions, but it is something to be considered.

Two of the worst things, and awful common, that often leads to people leaving the sport are bows that are too heavy, and bows that are not tuned.

Many of us are not even close to obtaining the accuracy that our bows can deliver.  They think it is there technique, or some other reason.  

A person will never shoot well as he or she can until that bow is of a weight that they can manage, and the bow is tuned.  It is sad that a lot of people are out there accepting the fact that they don't shoot as well as others, when the real problem is in those areas....Sad indeed.

Funny, in the old days, I don't think I saw any body with target panic.  Maybe it was because bow weights were in the 40 - 45 pound range most of the time....I think we can learn something from this.  Tell me, is it more important to shoot a heavy bow, or more important to hit the spot? I think we all know the answere to that one.

[BobCo 1965]

Scott, I have read and understand 90% of your points. Just a couple of comments though.

     

Tell me, is it more important to shoot a heavy bow, or more important to hit the spot?

I believe it is more important to hit the spot. But I don't believe for myself at least, that there a definite correlation between bow weight and accuracy within my means. Like I stated, I am shooting just as accurate with my 70# as with my 50# bows. However, if I was having a holding contest, of course I would be able to hold the 50# longer. FWIW though, I try to keep my shots fluid. I personally can notice a pause at full draw, however, most onlookers cannot. But if an individual is not accurate with a heavy bow as opposed to a lighter poundage bow, then of course they should shoot the lower poundage IMO.

     

The heavier I go, the heavier my arrow has to be, the trade off equals more work for the same result.

I don't follow the same result statement. What about momentum of the arrow?

     

Make no mistake about it, you may be he exception, there are always exceptions, but it is something to be considered.

Maybe I am, but I don't feel that I am the exception. I'm speaking of my original topic that I don't necessarily agree that you have to be able to keep an arrow at full draw without struggling for 10 seconds in order to not be overbowed. It's only that blanket statement that I was referring to. Thats all I'm really questioning. Like I said though, for a beginner, it may hold true and be a good starting point.

[Scott J. Williams]

I would suggest that if it is good enough for the beginner, maybe it would be the same for the vet.

Regarding your momentum question, at 10 - 11grains per pound of bow weight, how much weight do you thing is enough?  My girlfriend is shooting through hogs at 40 and 44 pounds.  I am a Cop by profession, I see guys all the time carrying around 44 mags, I find the 9mm sufficient and I can hit what I shoot at.  I would agree with you should I be going to Africa to hunt the Big 5. but my weight is satisfactory for what I am doing. I digress......

I am not avocating that everyone holds a bow for that long, but what could it hurt?  I shot my 70lb bow as well as the other lighter bows I owned, under the controlled conditions of backyard practice,3D shoots, but I am talking about when the rubber meets the road.  

I can't speak for you, but the last few shots at game where anything but typical.  I was leaning in a weird position, kneeling, and somewhat off balance.  Perfect conditions don't happen when I hunt, and the heavier bow is a handicap in those conditions, at least for me.

I have written much on this site that has been misunderstood.  I am talking hunting when I talk archery, target shooting is another animal all together.  I am not speaking about you specifically either, but for most of us, my statements ring true.

Barry Wensel once stated after he missed a rather large buck at spitting distance, "when a large buck is close, the tendency is to shoot quickly, and that often causes a high miss."  Those words are from the master, not Scott Williams.  Should he have held ten seconds, of course not, but another second or two would have been all he needed.  

I have under gone a change in my shooting style over the last few years,  I am getting better each year, and the only difference is that I am holding a little longer.  I am not at the ten second place yet, but I can hold six and still get the arrow in the spot.  I hope I can get to ten, why you might ask, because when I get there I know that my consentration would have reached a higher plane.

I contend that many people can't do that ten second thing, it is not because of a lack of phyiscal strength, it is a lack of mental strength. Instinctive shooting places the highest demand on us in that area.  

We are not saying different things, we are saying it differently.  Maybe now you will fully understand what I was attempting to say.  

Oh by the way,  I often go in to great detail not because anything you say was wrong, but for the benefit of those who read these things that don't understand.  That, to me, is the true value of a forum.  To teach, not to bicker.....

[BobCo 1965]

I would suggest that if it is good enough for the beginner, maybe it would be the same for the vet.

My reasoning would be that it seems like many beginners have an inclination to start off too heavy for whatever reason. Not meant to be all inclusive, but a lot of compound shooters seem to come to traditional with the understanding that they should shoot the same poundage as their compounds. For beginners, burning in form is usually practiced more and before trying to achieve accuracy. Poundage of the bow would be crucial in this stage. The ten second rule maybe good in determining the initial weight for the beginner to start with so proper form can be acheived and needed muscles developed, not that they would be holding every shot for ten second.

Personally, for me. The focus on the target starts before I even start my draw, though the draw cycle, and even after the arrow is released. I find that the longer I hold, the more problems that I develop and target focus decreases.

I'm not saying the 10 second rule should be tossed out the window, only that it shouldn't be looked at as law which should apply to everyone.

As far momentum, it was only mentioned because of the statement of the "same result". But momentum will have an effect whether target shooting (especially at longer ranges) or hunting. How much momentum is needed might make a good separate topic.

As far as poundage in general, do I need 70# for deer or small game, probably not. Do I need it for moose or elk, sure couldn't hurt.

Disclaimer - not for the beginners to follow as the "word". One thing I do find interesting with some of the top longbow shots (like Byron, John Schulz, HH) is that they all used pretty high poundage bows. I seriously don't believe that they continuously used these heavy bows to show off. Yes, they are shooting at targets mostly, but their shots really do count enormously. They could use any poundage bow that they wanted as long as the shot went where it was suppose to go, but they chose the higher poundage bows. If they could have been more accurate and made more spectacular shots with a lighter poundage bow then a heavier bow, then why wouldn't they have used them?

Bickering......Nope. Didn't create this topic hoping everyone would agree with me. No point in that.  
Picking brains......guilty as charged.  

[Scott J. Williams]

I see your point, and I don't disagree.  I too begin the aiming process before I draw, however it is not the end of it there for me.  It is more of a continuation until the point I release.

Let me describe my shot process.  I look at the spot I wish to shoot, I never take my eye off of that spot, or move my head.  I then bring the bow up and point my bow hand at the same spot, as I reach full draw, I extend into the shot making sure that I expand my back and push toward the target, there is a point at this time when my brain tells me everything is fine, I become rock steady and my bowhand seems to extend to the target.  I hold a little longer, and the string slips from my hand.  

That is not the way I did it a year ago, I am holding longer, and depending on the target, it might be longer or shorter. For me there is a correlation between the time I hold and how well I shoot.  In fact, maybe I am the exception to the rule, when I am not having a particularly good day, I make myself hold longer and it takes care of the problem.  

I know this is not the only way to shoot, I agree compound guys get the wrong idea about the weight they should shoot when they make the change to traditional bows.  

Maybe it is because I have come full circle, I started out with light bows, went to heavy bows, and now back to medium to light weight bows.  I guess I am just the kind of guy who likes to use a little less muscle when I can get the job done with less.  

Congratulations on a fine thread sir, I tip my hunting hat to you.....Man I love this sport, don't you?

[BobCo 1965]

Man I love this sport, don't you?

You know it. - And the type of people involved with it.

[bkupris]

Last couple years I have been hunting with a 47# recurve. When I practice I work on trying to keep the shot time from start of draw to release consistent at 3-4 seconds. Not always easy to do when the moment of truth comes 15 feet up in a tree stand I'll admit but it works best for me overall.

[longbowben]

Exclent info scott thanks.

[GroundHunter]

I shoot best when I don't think the shot - just shoot it. Hunting is not repetitive shooting. It's a one shot chance. Go with the rytm, and just shoot it.

The hold will be whatever shooting rythm you have set in your muscle memory. Don't change it. Just execute the shot.

For me, I prctice and use little or no hold, to be sure I'm pulling through the shot, for hunting stuations, and to keep one smooth tythm for the shot. When I do that, the game falls.

Sometimes I practice holding just to see what happens. Pretty much the same, but accuracy/consistency falls off.

If you can pull through smoothly while drawing a line, without pulling a muscle or popping your contacts out, you're not overbowed.