Shooting Technique Questions

[Max20702]

First let me introduce myself, as this is my first post.  My name is David Hagerman, I live in St. Charles, IL, and I've been shooting  longbows and recurves for 2 and one half years.
I would describe myself as "crazy about traditional archery," and my only complaint about Fred Bear was that he helped to launch the compound "bow" popularity.  I shoot at a target ten yards away for over an hour every morning.  You'd think with that much practice I'd be an ace every time.  Hardly.  Sure, I've hit thousands of ballons and split, cracked and generally shattered old shafts, but I can't seem to get a handle on a consistent shooting style.  One thing I do know: I cannot hold the string at full draw for more than a second.  I would say I shoot "Howard Hill style" but I'm still confused about anchor location (I know it should be at or near the corner of the mouth, but what's with photos of Saxton Pope achoring along the line of his lower jaw?)  Lately my philosophy has been: don't focus on where the arrow will go or even where you want it to go, just focus on the smallest part of the target you want to hit.  Still, no matter how I alter my shooting style (look down the arrow as if looking down a rifle barrel, anchor at the corner of the mouth, anchor in front of the cheek, anchor below the cheek, don't overcant, etc.), I am not consistently accurate.  In spite of this, I simply love to shoot and collect traditional bows.  Maybe, alas, I'll have to resign myself to the fact that I'll always be a mediocre shooter.  (By the way, I've never hunted.  Nothing against it, just haven't done it yet.)  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[capt eddie]

You are over bowed.  Borrow a light weight bow and matched arrows. And you will see a great improvement in your accuratecy.  It is important that the arrows match the bow.  Do not shot your arrows throught the light bow.

[John 4]

David,
First off,you don't have to resign yourself to anything (let alone being a mediocre shooter) you've proven this already by asking questions.
As Capt Eddies says,by your own description "your over bowed" ,but don't worry just yet.
From now on,every morning and every evening,"draw and hold your bow at full draw with an arrow on the string for as long as you can, then let down and do the same again.Put a time on it,like if your only really comfortable for one second now,make it 5 seconds,do this until you can't hold for more than one second,,,it will only take 3-4 full draws at first,but you will slowly build strength and within about 2-3 weeks you "will" be holding 30 seconds or more.
Now go and buy a good instructional DVD,,,,,from Ricky Welsh,"Shooting instruction II" to be exact.
Then stick to his advice and his advice alone,forget what ever else your doing "stick with what he says",stop the trial and error thing with your anchour point,just stick to the "one" method until it becomes second nature.
Now,one other thing,,,"Fred Bear had no faults"
Good luck and welcome aboard.

[laddy]

If when yousay you can't hold the bow back for more than a second you release because of compulsion to release, you may target panic.  If you draw an arrow at something you have no intentions of shooting at and you can stand there all day at full draw, that proves it.  If you want to shoot like Hill get Hitten 'em  like Howard Hill.  there may be other things going on with your shooting, flinches come in many forms.

[Molson]

Dave,  Maybe you should start first by describing your equipment.  Maybe you're over-bowed and maybe not.  Maybe you've got mixed up equipment and have created a bunch of bad habits trying to get a bad combo to shoot good. How about a little more info.

As for style, it doesn't matter what style changes you make if you don't have a good grasp of proper form and alignment.  You can anchor at your waist if you keep everything aligned and still shoot good.  

Look around on this forum and view some of the videos and comments.  Read some of the other posts to get an idea of where it is you're breaking down.  You'll need to identify that first before you can figure out where you need correction.

[Earl E. Nov...mber]

I guess I am always curious where that view of Fred comes from. Certainly not one I am familiar with although I often hear others mention it. Fred was a recurve guy through and through.

[Max20702]

About Fred Bear: he was probably great in every way, no question.  And I know he shot only recurves.  I'm just down on the whole compound "archery" thing (I prefer to call them arrow flinging contraptions).
All my arrows are matched to my bows; the release issue is not so much that I am physically incapable of holding the string at full draw, just that my instinct is telling me to release.  Are traditional bows meant to be held at full draw?  I've tried different shooting videos (Hittin' em Like Howard Hill, Fred Asbell's Instinctive Shooting, and Masters of the Barebow, vols. 1 and 2).  Everyone's shooting different and has different ideas about what works.  I don't know about anyone else, but when I am shooting well my concentration level is as taut as a strung string.  That can be difficult to maintain.  John Schulz says that Howard Hill thought shooting the bow to hunt and target shooting were so different, an archer had to decide early on which he or she wanted to do, as the two forms could not be mixed.  I am learning what I should be doing (hold the bow on target a second or two after the arrow hits, bring the arrow to a consistent anchor point each time, keep the elbow parallel to the ground, form a "T", don't be in a hurry--the list goes on) and what not to do (do not release the arrow before the bow arm has come up, keep the string arm elbow up, etc.)  If I can ever get this thing right...what a dream!

[Todd Hathaway]

If you shoot instinctively, I suggest you learn to aim the tip of the arrow, and here's why:

Once you eliminate the aiming from the equation, you will be able to pick apart your form errors. If you put the tip of the arrow on the same spot every time, the arrow should go in the same place each time. If it doesn't, you can figure out what went wrong with your form: peeking, plucking, dropping bow arm, etc.

Now you don't need to give up shooting instinctively, you can use this aiming method just to diagnose form errors.

What I would do is get out to at least 20 yards (the better you get, the farther back you should go), pull up like you normally would until it feels like you are on target. Now glance down at the tip of your arrow and see what it is "touching" in front of the target. If it is somewhere on the ground, go place a golf ball out there and every shot from then on, put the tip of the arrow on that golf ball. If you do everything the same, the arrows should slap against each other in the target. If not, you can figure out why without wondering if it was your aim.

Good luck.
-Todd

[AllenR]

David,

Good advice above.  However, you should decide what you want to do with your archery.  You mentioned that you don't hunt.  That's ok, nothing wrong with that.  Do you want to shoot target competition?  Do you just want to fling arrows for relaxation?

Any reason to shoot your bow is a good reason.  However, you express a desire to become better at it.  To do that you should look at the better shooters who are shooting the way that you want to shoot.

For most things that we do with a recurve or long bow, Rick Welsh has great form for hunting and target.  It's a great place to start.  Keep in mind that no one style fits every archer.  We are all different and want different things from archery.

I can't tell from your posts if you are overbowed or suffering from target panic.  In either case, it is probably a good idea to start learning your form with a light draw weight bow.  30 to 40 pounds is not too light.  It is easier to shoot a light bow for a lot of arrows and it will also magnify any release problems that you have.  A heavy bow is not as affected by a sloppy release as a light bow.  

Shooting at one distance is great for developing a consistant form.  But to develop aiming ability, you have to shoot at different distances.  Many archers shoot at twice the distance that they expect to need for target or hunting.  It helps refine their form and tighten their aiming.

There are some exellent posts in this forum by Terry Green. His posts on alignment are very good.

Good luck,
Allen

[TexMex]

I just want to say Welcome.
You are getting great help.

[cvarcher]

Todd, I hear you about the placing the arrow point on a secondary spot.But didnt Howard Hill say that you should never ever look at that arrow point directly and switch back and forth from the target to the point.he says it ruins the insinctive style of shot. What do you think he meant?

[Todd Hathaway]

cvarcher,

The troubleshooting technique I described does not have to be you method of aiming.

In fact you are not even trying to hit anything using the method; it does not matter where the arrow hits the target...what matters is that all the arrows hit in the same area. So in that sense you are not trying to hit a specific spot on the target.

Howard was describing and teaching HIS method of aiming, and in that sense, you should not look at the arrow tip if you want to shoot like him.

But it certainly is a viable aiming method known as "point of aim" that has been used successfully for hundreds of years. It is probably not the best HUNTING style of aiming because you have to take your eyes off the animal, but it is a great aiming method for targets. It essentially is no different than how a compound shooter aims, or a rifle shooter aims.

[Todd Hathaway]

TexMex,
I must say, I was pleasantly surprised to see your avatar! I hope you like your shirt, and thanks for the order!!!
-Todd

[Max20702]

I have started holding at anchor at full draw for at least five seconds before each shot and I can tell everyone that my shooting has already improved (I was under the impression that only compound shooters held at full draw).  I have bows that range in weight from 50-65#.  I do not want to venture any lower and, at my age (43), any higher than these weights.  Never having held my draw for longer than a second I am still able to do so with the various weight bows I have.
Another question: why do some archers state that they "shoot off the shelf"?  Is there another way?  The only reason bows have shelves is for the arrow to be set on for shooting, as opposed to the top of the bow hand.  As far as my method goes, I guess I haven't been shooting HH style.  Actually, I don't know which way I'm shooting.  I do know that I prefer either looking down the arrow (though not focusing on the arrow tip) or focusing on what I want to hit.  While for some under different conditions focusing on the arrow tip may be extremely effective, I prefer to focus on what I want to hit, while keeping the arrow and approximately where it is pointed in my peripheral vision.
Good question about what I want to do with my shooting.  Right now it's just for my own pleasure.  I have participated in one 300 League shoot and plan to do another.  I don't think I'll venture any farther afield in pursuit of target archery competitions.  I do, however, dream of field stalk hunts, free from having to use a tree stand, using my wits to outsmart my quarry, free also from the fear of accidentally being shot by or accidentally shooting another hunter.  (Friends, I've been a Chicagoland suburbanite too long).  If one of my youngsters develops the interest, I'd like to visit those traditional rendevous.  Right now I'm just a basement and occasional archery club shooter.

[bayoulongbowman]

First you need a lighter bow! 42# would be perfect...you can work on form and develope some sound shooting habits...then move up after you get a foundation on shooting down...thats what Id do...just my 2cents...good luck bud.. :)PS , make sure you have decent bow built to you're draw length...if ya dont some bows tend to stack and this could be some of what is causing ur TP ( Target Panic)..  

[Todd Hathaway]

Shooting off the shelf means: as opposed to shooting off a rest...which one can purchase at their local Gander Mt. and stick to the side of their bow just above the shelf. There is a wide variety of rests you can buy that might aid in better/quicker arrow clearance.

[Max20702]

I was at the club today shooting my 50# longbow, and let me say I could hold that thing at full draw, I believe, for three minutes.  My shooting today at 20yds was a lot better than a month ago.
Concentration and consistency are what I always need to remember.  Target panic?  I have experienced moments where I am afraid of clipping the nock off an arrow already in the target, and sometimes I think some shots are worse than others because of it.  How does one deal with target panic?  This is a whole other problem.  

[Todd Hathaway]

If you are in complete control of your shot; if you don't feel rushed to release the arrow as soon as you are on target; if you can let down even though you believe you are about to make the best shot ever, then you don't have target panic.