Bizzar Arrow Flight

[PastorSteveHill]

Shooting a Long Bow (not cut to center)

Noticed some irregular arrow flight so I did a bare shaft test... I'm pulling 50 lbs. @ 29'...  

I was shooting Carbon Express 150's with 200 gr. up front weight. Total weight was 500+ gr.  

They shot so nock left that they flew over 1.5 feet to the right of the target???  What???


So I tried some Carbon Express 250's.. Same thing?


I know I don't have a perfect release, but come one? What is this????


I tried everything I know to try and nothing worked..

I thought, lower the nock and see if that helps...

It did!  Or at least it seemed to...

Does this usually happen?  IF a nock setting is way to high will it cause an arrow to shoot really really bad?  I'm confused on this one...

[crittergitter]

You're not bare shafting with broadheads are you?

[PastorSteveHill]

No, field tips...

[Jacko]

Dont know anything on the dynamics of carbon arrows or the numbers they use to indicate spine but it sounds like you know about left hits too stiff and right underspined [ RH archer ].

Are you shooting off the shelf as generally this will require a higher nocking point than from an elevated rest

Have you played with more or less FOC by adjusting point weight . What length are your shafts , perhaps bareshaft testing with long shafts and your desired point and insert and shortening at the nock end until they fly straight a 1/4 " at a time may help . regards Jacko

[PastorSteveHill]

I am shooting off the shelf/ 3 under

I have played with FOC/ My shafts are 31.5.

Maybe the way I'm holding the longbow/???

[draco]

You cant your bow quite a bit dont you? I think you probably do. With a lot of cant in the bow your nock set can affect the left/right as it`s now partially to the side of the arrow.

[Toxophilite]

Hi Steve,

Couple of questions:
What "irregular arrow flight" started this?
What distance are you bare shafting from?
Have you tried bare shaft shooting with your longbow at vertical?

Phil

[Bear Gardner]

Pastor Steve,
 Have you every tryed raising your shelf? I mean right were your hand Piviots point is right there. I can't shoot off the shelf that will my self, so build up the shelf with double stick tap and deer skin so its up about 1/4". I find I have less drag. Like shooting off a reat on side of site window. Then set nok set up at 1/4-5/16" above level. According to 3 Rivers chart 150 carbons should work. Are you looking right down the shaft? not anchoring at corner of eye? "Bear"

[PastorSteveHill]

Hello PHil/ and others..

The irregularity started when I started shooting a loaner bow, mine had to get a touch up...  Little lighter poundage than normal, about 3 lbs. lighter.   I started seeing some floping around in my stump shooting...  Came home and tried to figue out the problem.. Bare shafted and, OUCH!  I lowered nock and that helped. I also noticed I was holding the bow more like a recurve than , heeling the bow. When I went back to heeling the bow, perfect arrow flight?  

I'm new to the traditional longbow so I'm wondering if this is normal?

[AllenR]

I think that if the bare shafts are shooting to the right of the fletched shafts that means that the spine is too weak.

You can either reduce point weight or twist up your string a bit to increase brace height.  Also, building out the shelf a little may help.

Of course if that doesn't work, try going the other way.  

Good luck,
Allen

[Toxophilite]

In my humble opinion, if the CX 150's & the 250's both bareshafted "weak" (right of point of aim) ,and things got better when you lowered your nock point, your problem could be you. (your bow arm, your grip, your anchor point and your release).
Try shooting from 10 or 12 yards. Focus on form--do the "suitcase" grip, steady your bow arm, take a breath, pick a spot, come to anchor and release.
Bareshafted from your longbow, the 150's should be good and the 250's a tad too stiff.
Steve, none of this advise comes from me. It's mostly advise I've gotten from reading and from other good archers.
Hope all or part of it works for you.
Phil

[PastorSteveHill]

HAHAH.. Hey Phil... The problem, "ME"?  No not me. haahah.. I can assure you with 100% certainty the problem is me.. I wish I could fix it. ahhah... I'm plugging away. THe 150's are flying good now. I had to fix several of the above mentioned. I was torqueing the bow, plucking the string and all the above. I read someo the post from other threads and it helped. Thanks guys.    Phil, how is the Apache working for ya?

[Toxophilite]

HaHa--Ya know Steve, shooting these things can make ya feel a little humble!
Glad you're making progress--same here.
That Apache is Sweeeeet! It's the first Roy Hall bow I've owned and it's impressive.
Phil J.

[Rednef]

A Carbon Express 150 has a spine on the order of 90+ lbs. on a "standard" spine tester. (Leave the comparison to the Easton scale out of it for now.) Is it it even possible to put enough point weight up front to overcome a spine that is near to twice what is called for? I would bet when you shoot these arrows you hear a loud "whack" or "clank". That sound is the arrow striking the riser as it passes through the arrow pass. That "whack" will drive the nock end of the arrow to the left. (Right Hand shooter.) A badly overspined arrow thus appears to be weak. Your clue is the horrible noise.
 I have noticed that having a nock point, or brace height, or spine that is way out of line will give you some very confusing results during bareshaft tuning. For example a nock height that is way too low or way too high will seem to give you left/right errors. That is it will indicate problems with spine. This happens because the arrow is hitting the riser and rattling around as it goes through paradox. The clue here is that arrow flight is horrible and the left/errors are generally not very consistent.
 By the way the 250 is actually a weaker spine, but probably still way too stiff for a 50lb. bow. It is still in the 90lb range.

[F Thomas]

Pastor Hill;

I think you are way over spined!!!  I worked at a large archery shop for a few months and most of the people there kept recommending carbon for longbows and recurves.  I don't like it because until you get to .500 and a long arrow the spines are just to stiff.  You would have to add a ton of weight in the shaft plus the heads to get the arrow to act as if spined lower.

I have had much better luck with aluminum.  I would be shooting 2016's out of that bow and maybe 1916's.  The 2016's I shoot out of a similar longbow fly like darts with a 125 grain head.  The spine deflection on the 2016 is:  .531

That is two to three times more deflection than the 150's and 250's I think.

[rnharris]

i am curious now about canting and bareshafting
is it possible to get the bow tuned bareshafting while canting thanks Ralph

try 100 gr insert and them fiddle with point wt i bet you can get those 150's to fly ralph

[Ray Johnson]

If you started with 150's and they appeared weak and then you tried 250's and they showed weak also then that means that you went the wrong way.The 150's are too stiff.Try some Easton Epic 600's.They should be right.

[PastorSteveHill]

How much do 2016's & 1916's weight??? Are they heavy enough to shoot without adding a bunch of weight????

What about wood shafts? What would you guys recomend I start with there????

[Toxophilite]

ATA spine testing will give much heavier than actual spine readings on carbon arrows. The "old" method, commonly used by wood shafting makers/users measures on a 26" span with a 2# weight suspended in the middle and is read, or produces readings in "pounds". I believe that's supposed to relate to what poundage of bow that particular shaft would be best for (presumably at 28" AMO draw).

The modern materials (aluminum and carbon) shafting manufacturers have adopted actual deflection (expressed in inches to the hundredths) of the shaft at the center of a 28" span using a 880 gram weight (1.94 lb). CX Heritage 150's spine out at about .485 to .490.  250's spine out at about .370 to .376.

There are 100's of trad bowmen, including me, who are getting fantastic results over a wide range of bow poundages bareshafting 150's & 250's, using fairly heavy F.O.C.  That fact, plus the straight, tough, quick-recovery shafts are why so many are going to carbon.
Steve, you ought to try aluminum and wood to see if you like them but you don't have to give up on your carbon arrows just when they're startin to work for ya.

[PastorSteveHill]

Phil, you must have a degree in physics.  That sounds awefully educated! hahah..

I'm still flinging the 150's.. they are acting better for me... THanks