Why am I not consistent?

[SHOOTO8S]

I'd suggest starting at the beginning and work on bow hand position and stay after it untill, you know without a doubt...this is my best bowhand position, by focusing on the bows reaction at release.....the bow jumping straight toward the target is what your looking for. Ans, yes, other form issues will effect how the bow reacts, but once you find YOUR best position, the other form issues , you work out later in the blind bale process, will only improve, the perfect bowhand position you have found.

You only touch the bow in two places..the bowhand and the fingers on the string and in the words of famous coach Len Cardinale...it pays to have both those perfect!

[TaterHill Archer]

I got a chance to shoot a little tonight.  I started with concentrating on my grip and how the bow settles into that hand when I draw.  I worked a little on back tension.

I made a discovery.  I don't think I release too soon, but I was drawing too fast.  Mys best shooting came when I slowed my draw while letting the bow settle in my hand the same way and keeping back tension through the draw and release.

Most of my inconsistencies tonight came from fletching issues.  I need to strip some fletching on some arrows and refletch.  I noticed my 60x120 4-fletch arrows fly better than my 75x105 4 fletch and both fly better than my 3 fletch.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by roknjs:
Most of my inconsistencies tonight came from fletching issues.  I need to strip some fletching on some arrows and refletch.  I noticed my 60x120 4-fletch arrows fly better than my 75x105 4 fletch and both fly better than my 3 fletch.

I hope you won't be offended at what I'm going to post about this.  

But, while you are working on your form consistency, if you notice how your arrows are flying or where they hit, you are not paying enough attention to your form.

I know this first hand because this is exactly how I WASTED a lot of time in archery.  I'm sure Dr Kidd would be able to explain it better.  On one hand I am determined to get better and spend a lot of time shooting.  On the other hand I let little things get in the way of improving;  tuning, tweeking, new string, re-fletching, new arrows, etc.  I have a better selection of tools and equipment than most pro shops so that I can distract myself from the things that I need practice to get better.  It's all fun, but playing with and adjusting the equipment won't make me, or you shoot better.

To shoot consistently, we need a bow that you can handle and matched arrows.  The arrows don't need to be perfectly matched to the bow, just matched to each other.  Then we need to put away all the tools and focus our practice on the various parts of our form, one at a time. (This also comes from Len Cardinale. That man KNOWS what it takes to be a good archer.)

This post is written as much to myself as to you.  Hopefully at least one of us will benefit.  

Allen

[last arrow]

Rod,

the comments on bow hand position and making sure your shot concludes after the arrow leaves the bow are great.  I am going to work on both tonight as I am sure  this will help me improve.

Have  you considered a "form tune up post" to provide a step by step  process to help people find thier "best" form.  I know I could use a coach.

Allen, great advice also.

[TaterHill Archer]

AllenR,
I agree in principle.  However, when you look downrange after shooting 4 or 5 arrows downrange and you see 2 that are always way off from the other arrows, you get a little curious as to why.

Once I had spent quite a bit of time working on hand position and back tension, I decided to shoot a few groups at 20 yrds.  My Gold Tips are matched to each other and some just didn't fly the same.  I have some 3-fletch and some 4-fletch.  I noticed the 60x120 4-fletch was working for me, but the 3-fletch wasn't.  I stripped the fletching off those and lo and behold, they were flying fine.

So, to sum it up, I wasn't focusing on where my arrrows were hitting or how they were flying while I was working on form.  I even shot some with my eyes closed.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by roknjs:
Once I had spent quite a bit of time working on hand position and back tension, I decided to shoot a few groups at 20 yrds.

I'm nowhere near as good a shooter as Rod, Terry or many of the others here, but I have worked with some great coaches and I'm getting better fast. I know what it takes to learn consistency and what you described ain't it.

Learning a new bit of form requires that you drill yourself on developing it without interuption.  Consistency is essentially new habits.  It takes many repititions to develop the new habits.  Interuptions such as going back to see if you are making progress slows this down significangly.  

A while back, Scott Williams posted that you need 34 focused repetitions each session and dozens of sessions (I forget how many sessions he mentioned)to develop a new habit.  If you go back to see how you are progressing, you just wasted the time that you spent working on your form (new habit).  

Habits are hard to change.  Just ask any smoker who tried to quit.  Archery habits are no easier to change.  In my case, I've mostly been unsuccessful but I do know what it takes.

If you want to be consistent at a high level, you have to focus on only one thing at a time and don't break training.  

Shooting a bow requires us to do several different things at one time.  Our brains are built to be able to consciously focus on only one thing at a time.  This means that all but one thing has to be trained to the point of subconscious execution.  There are two schools of thought on this. Some say to focus on form and aim subconsciously, others are say the opposite.  Both are successful, but you do have to pick one or the other.  And you have to develop subconsciously run habits to allow the other parts to run consistently.  

You can practice any way you want to.  It's totally up to you.  But, if you do what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always gotten. To take advantage of the great advice from Rod & others, you have to discipline your practice.

I hope that you aren't taking offense at this post. You asked why you aren't consistent, this is why.

Good luck,
Allen

[McDave]

Allen,

I think the difference between you and Jeff is that you "have worked with some great coaches" and he hasn't.  I don't know if I would feel comfortable drilling for dozens of sessions on something I made up myself or was trying to copy out of a book.  I might just be reinforcing bad form.  I can understand why he might drill for a while and then go back and shoot some from a longer distance, because otherwise how can he know he is doing himself any good?  I don't think it is impossible to self-teach, as I taught myself for many years before I had any professional instruction, and when I did, they just tweaked a couple of things I hadn't noticed.  But I don't know if I would have EVER noticed those things on my own.  And, I never have been sure I've had very good back tension because I've never had anyone standing over me telling me that now you're shooting with good back tension and now you're not.

What would your advice be about drilling for someone like Jeff, who hasn't had any professional instruction, and may not have any sources of that readily available?  (At least I assume he hasn't from his posts; my apologies otherwise).  Or for someone like me, for that matter, who may have had some professional instruction several years ago, but for all we know we may have picked up some new bad habits along the way?

I guess my thought would be to mainly shoot the bow, and NOT do much in the way of drills unless you have someone who knows what they are doing who can set you on the right path.

[AllenR]

McDave,

That's a very good point!!  I've been there myself and have the TP T-shirt to prove it.  

Some of the best information available is directed at compound shooters.  Bernie Pelerite's Idiot Proof Archery.  The reason that it is so good (apart from Bernie's style) is that most of it comes straight from Len Cardinale.  If you can ignore Bernie's style and focus on the information, there is a lot of good stuff in there.  The chapter on anticipation is as good as anything I've ever read on the subject.  His description of the bridge is straight from Cardinale and is an essential part of blank bale work.

Another good source is from Olympic Recurve coach Larry Skinner.  His video is excellent at showing what good alignment is, as is Terry Green's segment on the Trad Gang video.

After you see what good form looks like, video tape yourself.  It's very easy to see the big differences.  You can also post it here and you will get a lot of good feedback.  Some of it is not helpful, but it doesn't take long to figure out who knows good form and can be helpful.

Good form is little more than consistency. It is the ability to exactly repeat your shot time after time.  It is not a particular stance or style.  That is something that each archer has to work out for themselves.  

Many great archers and coaches have worked out a style and some fundamentals that work for most people.  They don't work for everyone.  It is usually best to start with the generally accepted form and to learn the fundamentals of a good shot.  But each archer has to adapt this generally accepted model to their own situation.

That being said, any time with a good coach will save years of effort in developing an individual form.  I saved up for six months to be able to spend a weekend with Len Cardinale.  It was the best archery money that I ever spent.  Just talking to him one-on-one for two days taught me more about archery than I thought existed.  I still refer back to the notes that I took that weekend when I run into problems.  Len never commented on my style or form and I'm pretty sure that my form wasn't (and isn't) exactly perfect according to the generally accepted model.  He watched me shoot three arrows and then began teaching me the process of developing a good shot.  I suspect that he only needed one arrow, but watched the other two to be sure.  I shot a lot of arrows that weekend while he watched me do his drills and left twice the archer that I was before.    

There are a lot of ways to avoid getting good at archery and I've done most of them.  Messing with equipment, undisciplined practice, buying the magic arrows or new bow that will instantly make me consistent will use up time and money that could be better served with coaching and disciplined practice.  

The point is that each archer has to decide how good they want to shoot and then do the things necessary to get there.  If you want to be pretty good and have a lot of fun with it, you can probably get enough information from the internet, some books and a couple of videos.  But, if you want a chance of beating Rod at a tournament, you will have to invest a lot more into it.  Only the individual can make that decision.

Sorry for the long rant.  I hope this helps,
Allen

[SHOOTO8S]

McDave, Allen....some very good points!

 I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've told someone....ya don't get good with a bow, by trying to hit stuff!
Its my understanding that it takes 21 day to fully ingrain anything to the subconscious and thats the rub..most guys will do the boring form work for a few days, then see some improvement, then think "I'VE GOT IT!" then just have to go back to a target...then the subconscious reverts back to the old way you have ingrained, when faced with the added pressure of a target...then a couple misses later, you start changing things and trying something new..and it only goes downhill from....bottom line is, you cant focus on aiming(whatever your method) and form changes at the same time....groove your form , untill the subconscious cant remember how you used to do it...then only focus on aiming when your trying to hit stuff.

Then again if your happy with your shooting, dont change a thing.I like what JC's grandfather said...something to the effect of....every man has to choose his own level.

I keep hearing a rumor that Len Cardinale and myself(maybe more) will be doing an indept shooting video sometime later this year  

[Ssamac]

I have 2 questions for the forum.
1. How much does consistency have to do with the bow? If you shoot different bows, does it hurt your consistency?
2. That said, I have a Ragim Impala, 60", 45#@ 28 (pretty new)  and a Herters Sambar, kind of vintage, 64" 48@28. If I had to stick with one, which bow would be the better of the two?
All opinions appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Sam

[TaterHill Archer]

McDave,
Thanks for clearing some things up for me.  I have never been taught or even watched by anyone.  I learned completely by reading books and watching videos.  I shot a compound for 12 years and I've been shooting recurves since 1998.  You also hit the nail on the head about why I practice that way.  I'm not sure if what I'm doing is right or not or if its making a difference.  The only way I can know is to back up and check.  And when I shoot 100 arrows at 5-10 yards with eyes closed without a target and I see some arrows off to the side, I've got to back up and check what's going on.  I shoot most of the time without a target, but at some point, I like to have a little fun and put one up.

I've only shot twice since my first post.  I didn't mean to say "Oh look, I worked on form for 1 session and now I've got it.  I don't need to continue working on my form."


As I mentioned earlier, I did post a video here and I only had 4 responses (3 by the same person).  I was hoping for more, but didn't get it.  I should also mention, that based on some of those comments I made some changes and that video isn't a good representation of my form now.

[TaterHill Archer]

McDave,
I should also say, I'm sorry for somewhat of a highjacking of your post.  Please forgive my intrusion.

[McDave]

No problem, Jeff.  I think we're both looking for the same thing.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
I keep hearing a rumor that Len Cardinale and myself(maybe more) will be doing an indept shooting video sometime later this year      

Rod,

Please put me at the top of the list to get that video!!   Considering who is involve, it will probably have more good information than all the other videos available.

Allen

[TaterHill Archer]

That's a video I'll buy as well.

[Diamond Paul]

Think about pushing a door closed with your left hand while you push a door closed with your right elbow, all while you are at full draw (assuming right handed shooter).  Now, imagine there is a hungry bear behind one door and a hungry lion behind the other one.  Proceed to try and keep them from opening either door and eating you until the string explodes from your fingers.  Works best when shooting at point blank range with eyes closed.  Good luck, Paul.

[targets3D]

Originally posted by Ssamac:
I have 2 questions for the forum.
1. How much does consistency have to do with the bow? If you shoot different bows, does it hurt your consistency?
2. That said, I have a Ragim Impala, 60", 45#@ 28 (pretty new)  
Sam

I am also curious about equipment. I understand it is all about the shooter, but if you were to take the same "average" shooter give them a started bow (e.g. Ragim Impala) and then have them shoot with a top of the line bow (Bob Lee, Black Widow, etc...)which is likely 10x the price, how much difference would you see in terms of accuracy and grouping?
K

[moebow]

Targets3D & Ssamac,  "average shooter" == no, you would not see any difference.  A light poundage bow is what is needed, not a custom whiz-bang.  As Rod and McDave and others have said, when you're working on form, the results on the butt DO NOT MATTER!!!!!!

If you're "blind baling"  then the position of the arrows in the target REALLY DO NOT MATTER and they are NO indication of what you are working on.

As has been said before, If you can achieve consistent form, that will give you the grouping and then (and only then) moving the group to the bull's eye is the easy part.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:

I keep hearing a rumor that Len Cardinale and myself(maybe more) will be doing an indept shooting video sometime later this year      

Rod,

I assume that the video you referred to here was MOBB # 3.  I was right about that one having a lot of good information!!

Any other videos with Len in the works?

Allen

[Ragnarok Forge]

McDave,

I struggle with the same problem. Shooting all my arrows into into 3 or smaller inch groups and then bam a couple 6 to 8 inch groups.  

I have found two things cause this. One is lack of focus on a tiny spot.  I get tired and end up looking at the whole target instead of the center.  

Most commonly though it is lack of back tension on the shot.  If I don't pull thru the shot I find that my string arm is not aligned right and I shoot left a lot.  My bow arm moves to the side due to poor alingment.  When I am missing up and down it is either high or low elbow position on the string arm.  This causes the bow to move up or down.  None of these things happen if I remember to pull with my back muscles and continue increasing back pressure until the string just pulls away from my fingers. By using steadily increasing back pressure my arm drops into the proper position and the shot gets off clean.  

I know I used proper back tension and I am going to hit where I am looking when my thumb on my string hand lands on my shoulder after the release.  Those arrows seem to magically bloom right in the center of the target. Now I just have to make it so I always do that!