Is there a name for how I shoot?

[zinndl]

I have been working on all aspects of traditional shooting and as far as accuracy sometimes I have it and sometimes I don't; consistancy has been very elusive for me. I have been focusing only on the "spot" and largly ignoring the arrow itself. Today I was shooting particularly badly at about 12 yards so I thought, what the heck, I moved back to 20 yards ( I only keep track of yardage for learning purposes) this time I focused both on the "spot" and seeing the arrow tip point directly at it and I put 2 out of 3 in the bullseye at 20 yards! So I moved back up to 12 yards and the result was the same; I do not think it is gap shooting because no matter the distance there is no "gap", I simply see the spot and the arrow shaft pointing directly at it simultaneously and as long as my form and release are good the arrow goes right where I want it. Would this be "split vision"?

[deermaster1]

sound like split vision.  some call it indirect aiming or instinctive gap.  if it works, use it.  congrats on the good shooting!

[BLACK WOLF]

zinndl,

Just trying to understand what you see and mean.

When you say there is no gap, that basically means that there is no gap created between the arrow tip and the target because the arrow tip is directly on the target.

If the arrow tip is not on the target and below it...there will always be some type of gap between the arrow tip and the target whether you are consciously aware of it or not.

Does that make sense?

So if there is no gap at 12yrds. or at 20yrds. that means your point on doesn't change if that is what you are trying to say.

Ray  

[zinndl]

Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
zinndl,

Just trying to understand what you see and mean.

When you say there is no gap, that basically means that there is no gap created between the arrow tip and the target because the arrow tip is directly on the target.

If the arrow tip is not on the target and below it...there will always be some type of gap between the arrow tip and the target whether you are consciously aware of it or not.

Does that make sense?

So if there is no gap at 12yrds. or at 20yrds. that means your point on doesn't change if that is what you are trying to say.

Ray      

Yea that makes sense. There was no gap, I guess another way to put it is that I was sighting down the shaft to the target.
Either way just like so many other things I have tried, this afternoon it all went to crap!!!!!
I am may be dead wrong but I feel like my form, release and follow thru are reasonably good, butI am getting really frustrated because I cannot seem to grab hold of being consistant.

[BLACK WOLF]

We all would love nothing more than to help you.

Is there any way you can post a video of you shooting or at least some pics?

That would definitely help us help you!

Tell us what is going on in your head as you draw, aim and shoot. What exactly are you thinking and doing?

Give us a play by play.

Ray  

[NDTerminator]

In Gap Shooting there are two points across a given range where your arrow point references directly on the target.  The Jenkins Method is based on the trajectory between the these two near & far Zero Points.

Without seeing you shoot, I would guess you are actually gap shooting but 20 yards is pretty far out for a near Zero Point.  With my recurves the near Zero Point is about 10 yards with 20 yards being my mid-point gap(about 20").  Based on my experience I would guess you are shooting a gap, you maybe just aren't aware of it.

The Jenkins Method, BTW, is astonishingly accurate once you get the hang of it.  I use it almost exclusively with my Reflex Caribou which I shoot barebow/fingers.  The fast, flat trajectory of the Bou' takes full advantage of the Jenkins Method.   Don't ask me why, but I shoot my recurves with a more "instincti-gap" style.  Hard to explain the difference.  Probably the closest I can come is that my IG method is less deliberate than the Jenkins method...

[STEVE R.]

I know what your talking about I SHOOT LIKE THAT. I see the spot and some of my arrow at the same time I concentrate on the spot only. It  seems that the arrow is right there under the spot, but if I try to focus on the point of the arrow as to gap shoot I mess up.I do not know what to call it but it works well just do not concentrate on the arrow. I would gap shoot if I could but my eyes do not focus properly, but this other method is not bad. It is instinctive while being aware of your arrow position in your subconscience. that is the best I can do.

[BLACK WOLF]

If an archer is consciously adjusting any reference in relationship to the target even though they may be focusing only on the target, they are not truly aiming totally Instinctively.

If an archer is aiming by consciously adjusting a gap within their periphial vision in relationship to the target even when there focusing 100% on the target...it's Gap Shooting.

It usually occurs with archers, who start out in the beginning by being very aware of their gaps and through repetition and time...less and less conscious effort needs to be placed on analizing the gap and it NEARLY becomes instinctive.

This is exactly how I aim the majority of the time.

When I aim totally Instinctively it's when I'm shooting very fast or when I'm shooting aerial targets. The techinique primarily relies on using proprioception, muscle memory and the sight picture subconsciously to adjust the aim while I consciously focus on only the target.

Gap Shooting and Instinctive Aiming can be very much alike. The ONLY difference that they have between them...is what the archer is or is not consciously aware of while they are aiming.

Just remember...it's not a sin to do either one  

Ray  

[longbowguy]

zinndl:
I think you might be able to build on your experience at 20 yards. When you are trying to shoot instinctively I think it is sound to sometimes give some attention the the arrow mainly to check two things: one, that the butt of it is directly under your eye, and two, that the arrow is in line with the target.

These two matters can go wrong and we must notice that and correct it before we switch back to instinctive.

Also, I like that your described 'pointing' the arrow at the target. I think that is a very useful idea in instinctive archery. So I suggest you repeat your 20 yard method often for several weeks until it is really solid. Then you coud work it down in yardage gradually.

At really short yardage on targets near the ground many of us tend to shoot high. When you get to them tilt your spine forward and set your goal to get down to the target. I think your instinctive skills will get the hang of it.

When that is done you can start working out from 20 to maybe 25. Beyond that things start to break down for most archers. Get back to us then and we will work on that together.

In the meantime build on the success and perception you have discovered for your self. And kindly let us know how it goes. - lbg

[longbowguy]

By the way, there is a name for it. It is called 'instinctive!'. That does not mean it is easy or automatic. You have to work to master it. - lbg

[zinndl]

Thanks to all for the advice. While I have had reasonable success sighting down the shaft, lately I have been trying to just look and shoot, kinda like the "throwing a baseball" scenario. No matter what I try or what may be working at the present moment I still cannot seem to remain consistent, I suppose that just comes with many hours of practice, which is fine because I love to shoot! One problem I have (if anyone can offer advise, please do) is that when I come to full draw I tend to try to be too deliberate in focus and release and I end up holding too long and get shakey.

[Bill Tell]

Originally posted by zinndl:
Thanks to all for the advice. While I have had reasonable success sighting down the shaft, lately I have been trying to just look and shoot, kinda like the "throwing a baseball" scenario. No matter what I try or what may be working at the present moment I still cannot seem to remain consistent, I suppose that just comes with many hours of practice, which is fine because I love to shoot! One problem I have (if anyone can offer advise, please do) is that when I come to full draw I tend to try to be too deliberate in focus and release and I end up holding too long and get shakey.

Well I have to tell you that it seems like I am reading something I  should have written about 4 months ago.  I was exactly in your shoes.  Am I doing this should I be doing this is my form wrong are my arrows wrong why can I stack them in a group at this yardage and miss everything up close?  What helped me more then anything is I read Fred G Asbell's book on instinctive shooting.  I had all kinds of bad habits starting and within a dozen shots after reading his book it all started to come together.

[Papa Bull]

Different people call it different things, zinndl, but I consider it a form of gap shooting.  Some consider it "instinctive".  Others consider it "split vision"  Some consider it "instinctive gapping".  The problem is that we're the only ones that know what we really see and just how we see it and just how we use it and sometimes we aren't even sure ourselves, so it's hard to say for sure what the proper name is for your style of shooting.  That could change from person to person and, ironically, they could all be right.

We've all got an arrow in front of our face when we shoot and that's never going to change so we might as well figure out how to use that and anything else that will help.

[Martin Farrent]

You see the arrow in one line with the spot, right? You can also see the gap if you choose. I think the former is probably just a short cut for the latter. The same constellation offers different ways of discovering a pattern amd memorising it. I used to shoot the way you describe zinndl (string walk now).

On another note, I still have no idea what "subconscious" referencing is all about, or "conscious" referencing, for that matter. I learnt to tie my shoe laces by watching my fingers do it. 45 years later, I don't watch them as intensely. I think I still tie them the same way, though.

Best,

Martin

[cvarcher]

zinndl, If you want consistancy you have to get this from form work. You cant do this and still try shooting at targets and group shooting. I dont even reccommned a blank bale since you will then try to shoot at the first arrow and therefore you now have a new target . How about this- tack on two layers of heavy carpet or rug pieces about 2-3ft square and no patterns or images.Just a solid color. Now change your points on 6 arrows to either rubber blunts or steel blunts. Stand NO MORE than 10 yds and carefully do your shot sequence and stop at full draw . Count if you like ,re aim at a distant target that you will not release at and then bring it back to the carpet and then carefully get the smoothest release you can. These little games will slow everything down and allow you full concentration/control on each aspect of the form including seeing a very clear sight picture. Youll get so good youll be able to place the point of the arrow on any spot other than the middle area of the carpet  that you have been shooting at.Oh yeah and notice after the first shot bounces off you still have a blank area with no target to worry about hitting. Try it.

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by zinndl:
One problem I have (if anyone can offer advise, please do) is that when I come to full draw I tend to try to be too deliberate in focus and release and I end up holding too long and get shakey.

There's really nothing wrong with being too deliberate in focus and release by themselves.

Holding your bow so long that you start shaking is the problem...which really isn't caused by a deliberate focus and release.

You should be able to easily hold your bow at full draw for at least 5 to 10 sec. without shaking.

Shaking is usually caused by a number of factors from fatigue to doubt.

#1. Being overbowed.

#2. Doubting or over analizing your aiming ability.

#3. Doubting or over analizing something in your form.

#4. Or anything distracting that may enter your thoughts besides accomplishing the task at hand.

The best way to eliminate most of those is getting a light weight bow and working on your form by shooting close distance at a blank bale until your form becomes instinctive.

Than you can start working on aquiring the right sight picture for different distances.

Ray  

[BLACK WOLF]

Great suggestions cvarcher!

Ray  

[Martin Farrent]

How about "ingrained form" instead of "instinctive form", Ray?

Just a suggestion to avoid unnecessary bickering.  

More seriously though: zinndl has nothing to gain by shooting 10,000 arrows at a blank bale and ingraining his form... not unless it's GOOD form that he's ingraining.

Best,

Martin

[BLACK WOLF]

Engraining his form so that he does the same thing every time and achieves good consistant arrow flight...IS GOOD FORM.

There are specific things an archer can do to make it easier...but whatever form an archer develops the one thing that it needs to be is consistant. IT DOES NOT NEED TO LOOK EXACTLY LIKE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE.

The key is consistantcy...and the way you develop that is by shooting lots of arrows...and a way to make it easier to learn is by taking advantage of the skeletal and muscular systems.

If an archer can NOT shoot with consistant form or is struggling with accuracy...they need to examine or re-examine what they are doing or not doing.

Ray  

[BLACK WOLF]