Instinctive, or aiming for hunting

[BLACK WOLF]

In other words...tell people what it does mean...don't tell them it doesn't exsist at all because it doesn't fit a portion of the definition you believe it should adhere to when another portion of the definition can and does fit.

All some of us are trying to do is eliminate the confusion over such a controversial aiming techinique when there really doesn't need to be all this confusion or controversy over a silly aiming techinique.

Ray    

[Terry Green]

I just saw you other post Paul, since I don't know anything about shooting a bow, I'll butt out of the shooters forum.

Yeah, I removed it.

[BLACK WOLF]

DP,

What address do you want...email...home...and why?

Ray  

[Diamond Paul]

Ray, don't be disingenuous.  I said I was done arguing, let it go.  I apologize for bad sportsmanship on my part. Terry, don't worry about it, I'm done posting.  Thanks, Paul.

[BLACK WOLF]

You've got issues Paul if you're getting upset over this. I've been nothing but straight forward and honest with you. You really need to stop with your poor assumptions!

Ray  

[hawksnest]

Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
DP,

When the word 'instinctive' is used to describe something...it often means 'instinct like'.

It does NOT have to be an instinct for something to be instinctive.

Ray      

When I started shooting, 1960-61, the NFAA had only 2 classes, Freestyle ( with a sight)  and "Instinctive". I shot in PA and they did the same.  It was called "instinctive" class up until about 1970 when it was changed to "barebow" class. I am self taught, never shot an arrow from a bow with a sight, and still have a tough time conveying my shooting method/s to others.  In shooting 20 feet to 80 yards, I use a couple different types of shooting, but all of them for the most part are based on instinctive shooting.  I taught my present wife to shoot in the "barebow" class for PSAA field rounds & 3-D in 1987, but she picked up her own method of shooting which is probably more instinctive than mine. She became one of only 3 barebow women in PA in the AA or top class.  We both shoot only traditional equipment again for the last 3-4 years. My point being that there are different ways for each of us to use our instincts to shoot well, but it's sometimes dificult to explain it to someone who doesn't.  Ray does the best job at explaining instinctive shooting IMHO.  Bill G.

[KentuckyTJ]

Instinctive. I think when you try to aim at any moving target as you would on the archery range, when that target does move it messes up concentration.

You want to practice your instinctive shooting under actual hunting conditions, go bowfishing.

[Kingwouldbe]

Why would you ever want to AIM? you might hit what your aiming at.

[Terry Green]

King,...instinctive aiming IS aiming.  Its just subconscious aiming instead of concsious.

[Kingwouldbe]

Terry, you are to easy my friend        

What is my conscious mind doing while my subconscious mind is aiming?      
I like to ready, firer, aim. (just kidding)

 

I just look at what or where I want my arrow to strike and try and not get in the way.

After a few thousand arrows the flight is grooved into my brain, whether it's sub, or conscious mind I have no idea.

The best analogy I have ever thought of, is the deliverance a Baseball infielder will through a baseball ( if he's at third base he will not through it at the same line of sight as he would if it was a bunt and he was half way to first base)

He does not think about how much he has to put on it, he just chucks it, making all of the necessary adjustment in his brain.

The first few times he might miss or through it wide, but after a few tries, he's got it, and can through the ball from any where on the infield and hit the first baseman.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[bihunter]

I think Byron Ferguson explains well. Find your gap at certain distances. That gives you positive feedback for your subconscious to absorb for future shots. As you progress you gradually pay less & less attention to the arrow. But really, the arrow is out in front of your eyes, so it is kinda in your vision, you just don't use it consciencly, but subconscienc, as it was trained by it's own observance.

 Also Ron LeClair said in Masters of the Barebow, Vol. 1 that he uses all of the systems, depending on the shot situation, allthough jhe said he tries to use just the system of concentration on the spot(instinctive?)

 Howard Hill used what he called the spit vision method, what we now call gap shooting. He used this system consciences all of his life, so it must have a lot of merit. He was a great shot & very succesful hunter.

[Aaron Proffitt]

Originally posted by bihunter:
 Howard Hill used what he called the spit vision method, what we now call gap shooting. He used this system consciences all of his life, so it must have a lot of merit. He was a great shot & very succesful hunter.

Split and gap aren't the same thing.

[Terry Green]

King......good post.    

Aaron.....I agree, they are not the same, least from what I'ver read and heard about the two different aiming methods.

That's why its so important for folks to not miss represent terms as it causes confusion and strife.

BTW....HH also shot a lot of animals instinctive.

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
King......good post.        

Aaron.....I agree, they are not the same, least from what I'ver read and heard about the two different aiming methods.

That's why its so important for folks to not miss represent terms as it causes confusion and strife.

BTW....HH also shot a lot of animals instinctive.

Your exactly right,Terry.

Gap is when the arrow point is actually used as a reference with respect to the target.Say,held so low at 20 yards, a bit higher at 30,perhaps dead on at 40 or 50.Simplified,but that's the concept.
 I've tried it and could never really get it.

I,however, do shoot split-vision.Figure I did it all my life and didn't know it had a name.All it is is I am focusing on the spot I wanna hit,and yet I am still seeing my shaft in my periphery as a sort of reference.But it is done so sub-consiously and quickly that someone could infer that I am shooting strictly by instinctive method alone.And instictive is involved.It's a pretty deadly method that is the bee's knees for me.Some shoot and never are aware of seeing their arrow.That's cool,too.Alotta ways to skin this cat.The cat's gonna hate all of 'em,but you still end up with a naked cat.

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

Originally posted by Kingwouldbe:
 

I just look at what or where I want my arrow to strike and try and not get in the way.

After a few thousand arrows the flight is grooved into my brain, whether it's sub, or conscious mind I have no idea.

 

And there are some on here that will tell you that is wrong.That it shouldn't take a few thousand arrows shot to reach that goal.
I see what you're saying and pretty much agree.Plus,so what if it takes repetitive shooting to get where you wanna be ?If you like to shoot,then it's really a non-issue.  :D

[BLACK WOLF]

Aaron,

I don't want to argue for arguements sake.

Maybe we can discuss this more in depth so we can all come to a more mutual understanding of the different aiming terms to promote...as Terry mentioned...to help eliminate some of the confusion and strife regarding aiming techiniques.

These are the definitions I've found for Split Vision and Gap as I understand them.

Most aiming techiniques are defined by what the eyes and mind are focusing on.

Gap - the eyes and mind focus on both the target and the gap created between the arrow tip and the target and the archer consciously adjusts the gap according to the distance of the target.

Split Vision - it's like combining Point of Aim with Gap. A predetermined spot is picked out to place the arrow tip on for a particular distance while splitting the focus between that spot, the arrow tip and the target. It's nearly identical to Gap but differs because of what the archer is focusing on. If the Split Vision archer was just focusing on the gap and the target...it would be Gap but he is also focusing on that predetermined spot.

It basically shows the transition some archers like myself have made going from learning Point of Aim in the beginning to Gap and eventually Instinctive.

It's all based on what you focus on and how you focus on it.

Ray  

[bihunter]

I think the important thing to remember is that in Howard Hill's day the word gap wasn't invented yet. About 30 seconds ago I reread, for the 1000th time, Chapter 5 in "Hunting the Hard Way". I really hate to type but if you want me to quote from that chapter, I will be happy to, or you can read it yourself, assuming of course, that you all have the book

[SHOOTO8S]

With all the variations of each aiming method its very hard to get accurate definitions...take gap for example...I use gap much like Ray defined :

"Gap - the eyes and mind focus on both the target and the gap created between the arrow tip and the target and the archer consciously adjusts the gap according to the distance of the target."

Except, my focus is on target, with my subconscious seeing and setting gap, at the arrow point...others use the gap between the arrow and their eye at the riser...theres even a few with high anchors, that set gap at the nock end of the arrow...some use a point 3-4'' from the point end to calibrate target, due to anchors too high to see the actual point....ohh and what about the many guys, whose focus is on the gap itself, not the target or point ?

Good luck with getting a hard and fast definition...as theres several varations!
    :D

[BLACK WOLF]

Rod,

"Except, my focus is on target, with my subconscious seeing and setting gap, at the arrow point."

That sounds like you are aiming instinctively to me based on your words used when you adjust the gap subconsciously and 100% focus and concentration is on the target.

I believe whether an archer gaps off the arrow point or the riser consciously...it's still Gap shooting because a gap is consciously being adjusted without a Point of Aim reference that also could be used like with Split Vison.

Personally, my main aiming techinique is Gap. I shoot off a sight picture gaping off of my arrow and riser similar to how a apature sight works.

I adjust my gap consciously but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is for a particular distance...except for my Point On distance.

My Gap style aiming techinique is almost instinctive...but not quite. I'm still relying on my conscious mind to see the gaps and consciously feel and make the adjustments.

When I no longer consciously adjust my gaps and completely allow my subconscious to adjust them...my Gap aiming techinique will have than evolved into purely aiming instinctively where I rely more on proprioception and muscle memory...which I often use when I'm shooting at moving and aerial targets.

Ray  

[chuck172]

"proprioception"-wow, I think my wife did that when she gave birth to our daughter.
I don't know what I do and I think I'm glad. I don't pay the arrow point any attention at all. I am concerned with arrow alignment with my peripheral and I focus very hard on a spot.