Aiming

[swampbuck]

Rt handed shooter "should" be rt eye dom

I never knew that myself till many many yrs later and since my eye's are so close and I can force the switch(I'm lft eye rt handed) which has become habit, I didn't buy all new stuff and relearn.

[stmpthmpr]

Hey John,

You mentioned in the original post that when you are shooting good, you shoot 6 arrows in a six inch circle at 17 yards. You also mentioned that your arrows fly good.

Seems to me you have a great start!! MY ADVICE? Keep it simple!!!

Your stated goal is a good one. To become proficient out to 30 yards for hunting. Sounds like you are shooting instinctive (not aiming, just picking a spot and shooting). IMO that's the way to go for hunting, ESPECIALLY in Alaska. I doubt there is any other place as diverse as Alaska.

Should you ever have the opportunity to stick a charging black bear, a full curl ram while laying flat on your belly on a rock outcropping, swing shoot a bull moose that bolts upon realizing you arent a hot cow, or a fox moving past a small opening in the brush, you'll be glad you are an instinctive traditional archer.

Alaska offers some of the best stump shooting. Anywhere you find old growth spruce, youll find nice soft, mossy stumps to kill. The quickest way to become proficient is to take to the woods and shoot from stump to stump, one arrow at a time. Shoot through brush, around trees, under spruce bows, from your knees, sitting down, standing on a dead fall. Doesnt matter what distances, who cares! Have fun!

Before you know it, you'll be hitting what you look at. You'll know how far out there you begin to have trouble. You'll then know your maximim effective range when you see it.

If you find along the way that you are having specific trouble with arrow flight, etc, THEN ask questions.

I started out shooting heavier than 65#. If it feels good, do it. Im a snap shooter. I pick a spot, draw, and release the second I hit anchor. It's just MY opinion, but I believe in shooting a weight that almost requires one to release immediately upon hitting anchor. Why? because then you dont have time to think. The more I think, the worse I shoot. If I stand squared off in front of a target, I think. If I shoot more than one arrow from any given spot or distance, I think. Im thinking about putting the arrow in the same place as the last instead of picking a unique spot that has my total attention and focus.

That is what hunting situations are. Unique. So it only makes sense that we would practice in the same way. If a moose walked up broadside at 20 yards and stood there until we scratched ourself and got all lined up, it wouldnt be much fun!!

As mentioned, instinctive shooters seem to do best in 3D competition. I just disagree (with all due respect) with the stated reason. The reason we do well is because we are shooting at unidentified ranges. Doesnt matter if they are closer or larger!!!!!! They are put out in hunting type situations, with all the brain distractions we are used to seeing and are used by the brain to judge the shot.

We beat compounders who are shooting twice the speeds we are. They have stabalizers and peep sights. But, they are handicapped because they must judge distance. We dont. We have a built in range finder.

Some say instinctive takes longer to master than gap shooting or string walking. Thats a curious thing. To know this as fact, one would have to have accomplished both, each learned without benefit of the experience gained by the prior. That isnt possible.

Remember, we ARE talking about bowhunting. To use the conscious mind to learn to gap shoot or one of the other aiming techniques, to me is limiting. When I think of ALL the amazing things the unconscious mind handles, every second of every day, processing information and sending signals to the muscles, it blows me away. Compare that to what the conscious mind is capable of and there just is NO comparison. It only makes logical sense to allow the unconscious mind every opportunity to take charge of my shooting.

My feeble brain can manage to remember my bow, quiver of arrows, and shooting glove. Beyond that.... PICK A SPOT... PICK A SPOT... PICK A SPOT!!!

Thats my eighty five and a half cents. Sorry, Im eighty three and a half cents over the limit!!!

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by stmpthmpr:
Sounds like you are shooting instinctive (not aiming, just picking a spot and shooting).

Great post with some great suggestions.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything close to that...so please don't take it that way. I would have this same conversation with you if we were sitting together around a campfire. I believe you have every right to your opinion as any member here. I just would like to discuss a little more in depth about some of the differences in opinions that we seem to have and try to explain a little more in depth why I have come to the conclusions I personally have.

I believe the use of the word 'aim' as we describe shooting a bow and arrow instinctively applies and this is why.

Merriam Webster's definition for the word 'AIM'

1: to direct a course; specifically : to point a weapon at an object
2: aspire, intend
transitive verb
1obsolete : guess, conjecture
2 a: point b: to direct to or toward a specified object or goal

If you or anyone else does't like to use the word 'aim' that's fine with me...but as we all should see based on the definition...the word 'aim' definitely can apply to aiming a bow and arrow instinctively.

   

Originally posted by stmpthmpr:
As mentioned, instinctive shooters seem to do best in 3D competition. I just disagree (with all due respect) with the stated reason. The reason we do well is because we are shooting at unidentified ranges. Doesnt matter if they are closer or larger!!!!!!

We beat compounders who are shooting twice the speeds we are. They have stabalizers and peep sights. But, they are handicapped because they must judge distance. We dont. We have a built in range finder.

If distance and the size of the target didn't matter and unidentified distance was the true cause...than that theory would also hold true for targets set between 30 and 80yrds or hold true in NFAA 300 rounds.

Almost every 3D competition I've researched and/or participated in...the archers shooting the top scores have almost always been compound shooters using sights and a release. Most of them beat the top trad shooters by at least 10% or more and usually have to shoot from stakes set at further distances. In NFAA 300 competitions most of the top barebow shooters are using Point of Aim. Rarely will you see a true Instinctive shooter winning or even placing in the top 3 in a National Tournament like that...and if you're comparing the top compound shooters with sights to the top barebow shooters scores...it would look like 300 with 55X's to 280 with 30X's.

I don't think it's accurate to compare mediocre compound shooters with excellent trad shooters. When making a fair and accurate comparison I think it's best to compare the best of the best who win their specific divisions.

   

Originally posted by stmpthmpr:
Some say instinctive takes longer to master than gap shooting or string walking. Thats a curious thing. To know this as fact, one would have to have accomplished both, each learned without benefit of the experience gained by the prior. That isnt possible.

One of the ways you can find out which aiming method is easier to master for accuracy is by teaching new archers.

I can pretty much guareentee that if you told one group of new archers to just point and shoot without looking at anything other than the target to aim by and compare their accuracy to the group you taught Point Of Aim to...you would see the accuracy and consistantcy develop quicker with the group that was using Point of Aim.

   

Originally posted by stmpthmpr:
If you find along the way that you are having specific trouble with arrow flight, etc, THEN ask questions.

Asking questions before you have trouble can save you that trouble.

Ray    

[JDice]

For what it is worth: I started shooting a recurve when I was a kid. I stopped (for a long time) and recently started again. I know I have good equipment - but - initially couldn't get the results I wanted. In looking for answers I found out about gap shooting (Masters of the Barebow 1 & 2 from 3 Rivers) - for me - that was the answer. You mentioned that you are shooting your hunting bow - I started learning to shoot with a lighter draw weight - so I could focus on the process - before spending much time working with my hunting bow. The following image is my personal best at 20 yards using a 35# Tamerlane. Even though I haven't been able to duplicate that group (never mind the Robin Hood) - this one group does establish what can be done - and sets the goal everytime I shoot. One final thought - as I consider myself a hunter - every shot is the "first shot".

 

[stmpthmpr]

Ray,

With all due respect, I couldnt care less about shooting competition and I see no reason to compare the best with the best.

I also see no reason to debate this with you because we are talking apples and oranges here.

Im a bowhunter, and if Im not mistaken, this is a bowhunting site. More often than not, the folks here that promote aiming systems are those who ARE interested in shooting proficiently at targets and in competition shooting.

I know you are into research and I respect that. I know you have taught archery to newbies and I respect that as well. But, because you have found that newbies are quicker to shoot a group at a target with an aiming systme, says nothing about their ability in the woods for bowhunting and thats what Im talking about, and again, I do believe that is what this site is about.

I have taught a great many new to trad archery, too. Ive learned more than Ive taught really. And what I have learned over and over again is that aside from the very basics, they are better served left to their own devices to find what works for them. And if it's made fun, and not confused and filled with statistics and do's and dont's and what the best do and all that, they will find their own groove.

I show them what works for me, you show them what works for you, and chances are they will end up finding their own way.And that my friend is what it's all about.

My hat is off to those who enjoy competition. MY competition is with myself and with the game I pursue. And, with my good friends a littel healthy competition taking turns picking a spot on stumps is the best practice in the world.

To me, trad archery is a very personal thing. Im passionate about it. I couldnt let pride or competition be the driving factor. My driving factor is the love of the bow and the beauty of the flight of an arrow hitting it's mark. Just one. That one single arrow all by itself sticking in a spot on a stump or a tuft of hair behing the shoulder.

What I love to pass along is the joy of being out in God's creation. I love the feeling of being so small and insignificant, relevant to the enormity of God's amazing work of art.

Ive seen unimaginable pain and suffering in my life and thirty minutes in the woods or mountians with a stick and an arrow is worth more than thirty years of anything the man-made world has to offer. Thats traditional bowhunting for me. Beating another human being or the animal even, means little really. It's the unique ability that nature has of cleansing the soul.

Just a walk in these amazing places should be, but isnt enough. Men have a need for challenge and a need to conquer. Bringing that out from deep inside, archery fills that need for me. But, from "inside" is the key.

So much of what we do in life is about external gratification. In our capitalistic society we must strive to survive. Some folks need more. Im one who has a deep need to escape man's trappings for a satisfaction that is only found in being alone and as far from the manufactured plastic world as possible.

OOPS!! I hit the reply button by accident. Good a place as any to stop my rambling I guess. Its an interesting process to formulate things into words that you dont ever remember consciously even thinking about before. Had I proofread, I would have taken much out Im sure. I always do. Cant help it. I just appreciate a place like this to share my thoughts... for what they're worth. Thanks!!

[stmpthmpr]

Jdice,

Awesome shooting. Its great you made it back to trad shooting and found your answers. Thats what matters.

As far as the rest of my rantings...

I sure hope that I dont sound like i have any answers. I, like everyone else, have opinions and what works for me. Some of them strongly held. But I certainly wouldnt suggest that my way is the only or best way. Ive been thru my share of frustration and seen others go thru it. I will always be one that promotes keeping it simple. If it aint fun, it's hardly worth doing and the end result is important for sure, but the process is where we learn and grow and spend our lives. Enjoy the process.

I hope that where we all come from is a place of wanting to share the joy of bowhunting with others. So many here are wanting and willing to help others toward that end. It's a thing worth sharing.

I have to stop an aweful lot and look at myself and ask what my own motives are. Pride is a sneaky bugger.

Im just a guy who loves to hunt and fish and take every opportunity to talk about it. A long winded one at that!!!

[BLACK WOLF]

Randall,

The ONLY reason why I bring up competition is to show a comparision of the different aiming techiniques in an area where there is an actual way to measure the results in regards to precision accuracy.

You gave some awesome advice in regards to how to practice for hunting situations...which I totally support and I personally do...when I'm preparing to hunt.

In competition there is a target and in bowhunting there is a target. The biggest difference in bowhunting is it's the first shot that really counts and there usually isn't a second chance for another shot. In target competition...there's multiple arrows being shot. I personally view every shot as my first shot. At least that's how I am able to focus on each shot without the previous or future shots distracting me.

IMO, Instinctive Aiming isn't the only effective way or only traditional way to aim a trad bow while bowhunting, which is why I try to go into detail about all the different aiming techiniques when they are being discussed.

I'm one of the bigest supporters of Instinctive Aiming...I just try to be as open and honest about it based on my experience and research so that anyone looking to get into this sport or change their aiming techinique has some realistic information to go by.

Nothing more...nothing less.

We really are alot alike in our passion for this great sport. The only difference is that I seem to have a little more experience in target competition than you do...but that doesn't make me any better of an archer or a better teacher than you.

Ray  

[swampbuck]

"We beat compounders who are shooting twice the speeds we are. They have stabalizers and peep sights. But, they are handicapped because they must judge distance. We dont. We have a built in range finder."

"With all due respect, I couldnt care less about shooting competition and I see no reason to compare the best with the best."


It would take a real good stick shooter to beat a so so wheel shooter all else being equal not that it really should matter to anybody but you did make the comparison

I spent a doz. or more yrs getting so so with the burn a hole method....personally "I" would have done better IMHO if I had used what was right there.Now that I can see my arrow not that I look at it LOL I can't help but see it.I can now understand the why of folks saying they can't/don't see their arrow AND I understand the folks that say how can you not because I have personally gone down both roads.

Now it's been over 20 yrs and I must say the journey has been enjoyable even the struggling yrs that really didn't need to be there.

This thread is/was about "aiming" and there's good AND bad points to all of the ways we aim but without knowing all of them how can we decide whats best for us??

YES choice's are personal....I like to know what my choice's are before choosing

[Muskoxman]

Stmpthmpr,

It sounds like we understand each other. I just want to become a good bow hunter . It seems like all the time here in AK I here about more archery only hunts, and of course there's the dalton highway. I'm no spring chicken and having grown up in the sticks I've done my share of hunting, but with a rifle or pistol. I do enjoy getting up to archery range before taking a shot. I'm kind of a one shot one kill guy.
 If your not to far away  and wouldn't mind seeing me fling arrows I could use some help. Plus you might want to get a look at my herd of muskox.

Thanks, John

[stmpthmpr]

Good post Swampbuck.

I only made the point because I had a stupid emotional reaction when it was said that Instinctive archers only do well in 3D tourneys because the ranges are short and the targets are bigger. May be the case for some but not all.

In my admittedly limited experience at 3D shoots, my buddies and I have done very well and I believe it is because the comp shooters are used to shooting groups at known distances. I am what I am, and dont know enough about others to judge whether they are so-so or great. Youre right... doesnt matter.

All I originally wanted to do is respond to the original post and encourage him. I didnt look for how I could bless him with my brilliance, I looked at what he said. He has been shooting some good groups. He isnt consistant yet. It takes time.

My apologies for responding to what I consider to be generalizations. My opinions were as well. Good call.

When I started out I was alone. Didnt know any other trads and internet didnt exist. I found my own way and for much of that had the benefit of a lifestyle that allowed me to shoot hundreds of arrows a day. Building them, shooting them, hunting, was my lifestyle. Thats where Im coming from. I really should just learn to shut up. This online thing is new to me and the chance to talk about what I love is very cool. I just need to stick to what I know. Targets and competition aint it!!!

How'd I get wound so tight today?? I need to go string up to get unstrung!!

[stmpthmpr]

Originally posted by Muskoxman:
Stmpthmpr,

It sounds like we understand each other. I just want to become a good bow hunter . It seems like all the time here in AK I here about more archery only hunts, and of course there's the dalton highway. I'm no spring chicken and having grown up in the sticks I've done my share of hunting, but with a rifle or pistol. I do enjoy getting up to archery range before taking a shot. I'm kind of a one shot one kill guy.
 If your not to far away  and wouldn't mind seeing me fling arrows I could use some help. Plus you might want to get a look at my herd of muskox.

Thanks, John

Dont know how much help I can be John, but I can sure help you pass some time shooting point sticks and stuff!!!

I never turn down the op to shoot with someone. Ill shoot you an email and see where you're at.

Randy

[swampbuck]

Have FUN guys sounds like a blast

[Muskoxman]

Hey randy,
shot you back an email.

John

[stmpthmpr]

Got it John!

Ill be in touch!

[Hard Head]

The things we learn from others. Kind of like this site.  

[Muskoxman]

I've got another question, do some of you shoot better at a 3-d target than a 2-d, flat target ? The other day I shot a squirrel in my barn, hit it no problem. Then today I hung a 12 oz plastic juice jug in front of my target, and I shot a lot better. Maybe my eye's are just goofy and focus on the 3-d better.

John

[BLACK WOLF]

Our minds can be stimulated by different things that can definitely effect our shooting...which is why some archers are better at shooting certain targets than others.

One of the reasons why you might shoot better is because you are either focusing in on a smaller target or you're more excited about shooting a 3 dimensional target.

Whatever the reason...the mind can be trained to shoot just as accurately at a 2 dimensional target as it can a 3 dimensional target.

Ray  

[JDice]

When I started learning to shoot with a barebow - my 1st target was a 24" bag. After some effort, I was able to hit the target out to 40 yards consistently - but - I couldn't shoot a tight group at any distance. Then I was given an 18" target - almost immediately - I was able to hit the 18" target, consistently, out to 40 yards - but - I still couldn't get a consistent group on the target.

One day I realized that I was aiming at the target - the entire target - not a single spot on the target. In other words, my accuracy improved because my mental target got smaller when I got the smaller target. So I started shooting at a single spot on the target. Almost that same day - my consistent accuracy started improving.

I am suggesting that maybe you are doing the same thing I was doing - you might be aiming at your target - not a spot on the target. Given that a squirrel and a milk jug are probably smaller than your regular target - your accuracy suddenly appears much better than when shooting at the bigger target.  

Bottom line - assuming you have tuned equipment and a reasonable form - your mind becomes the most important component in your accuracy. Per a line I heard in a movie - "Aim small, miss small".

[swampbuck]

On game I like to pick a "real" spot like fat wrinkle's.It helped me out quite a bit.On 3D foam targets there are old holes your buddies nock ect. but real spots just the same.

Good luck

[Muskoxman]

You guys were right, big target bad.
I don't know if it's because of my scotch blood or be raised by parents that grew up in the depression, but I have a hard time spending the greenbacks. When I do part with a few I believe in buying quality. Anyhow being a hay farmer I was using hay bales for a target. I soon figured out I was going to mess up my fletching. So I draped an old holifill sleeping bag over the bales and drew a target on it. Worked good, stopped the arrows good, of course the sleeping bag is now tore all to hell. Made a target this mourning out of a old saddle blanket and sewed a piece of black belting to it for a target. To make a long story short, shooting much better.

John