Gap shooting or instinctive shooting, I have to make a decision

[CTaggart]

As the title says, I'd like to make a decision as to what shooting style to train myself on.  I'm very new to trad archery and would like to pick your brains as to what style you shoot and why.  

I'm also in the market for instructional reading on the topic.  What style would be more beneficial for somebody who would be hunting with their recurve?

[leatherneck]

I would suggest picking a spot and let her rip. I also shoot a recurve and shoot split finger(one over the knock and two below. I anchor with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth. This subject will certainly stir the kettle so I'll leave it at that.

As far as videos, Masters of The barebow is what you want. Several styles to choose from and excellent instruction. I liked #1 the best. You can get it on Trad Gangs store page.

Mike

[CTaggart]

That is another topic I hadn't thought of...I was instructed to shoot 3 fingers below the knock...  This was per my local bowshop employee.  (who is a pretty well informed fellow as well as a trad shooter)

As far as stirring the kettle, I certainly  do not  mean for a heated discussion.

[caleb7mm]

I shoot like leatherneck described, the main reason is I shoot good that way and when I try and gap shoot and cant group worth a flip. Whatever is the most comfortable and most ethical for you. If you shoot better and more consistant groups one way or the other I would stick with that, you owe it to the animal for a quick clean kill.

My .02


thanks

--c--

[Danny Rowan]

3 under is a good way to shoot especially for newcomers. For hunting, instinctive is faster,look at where you want to hit and shoot, but some people do gap. Pick what works for you and go for it.

Danny

[Donnie Earl]

CTaggart - I would suggest reading the article "Instictive Shooting...Is It Really?" by Andy Duffy in the Oct/Nov 08 issue of Traditional Bowhunter Magazine.  I think it's a great article on the subject.  Essentially, I use the G. Fred Asbell school of thought, and I also recommend his video and books.  However, I think that there is a lot to be said about sight picture and this is where I sort of part company with Fred (no blasphemy intended Fred).  I believe that we all do a little bit of gap shooting whether we admit it or not...a lot of that has to do with our conscious vs. subconscious mind.  Donnie.

[longbawl]

I also grip the string one over and two under i also anchor with my middle finger. That is what works best for me. As far as shooting i shoot what i think of as  instinctive inside 20yds. After 20yds i have found that i gap. I can put the tip of my broadhead on where i want to hit 25 a little low 30 dead on 35 a little over. I just found what worked best for me and went with it.

[tackhammer]

I find that if you are shooting 3 under that that lends its self to gap shooting a little better than split finger (the gap is smaller), so your finger style my influence your sighting style more at this point IMO. But then again I find myself instinctively gap shooting!
go figure    

[BLACK WOLF]

There are some basic advantages in techiniques that can make learning to aim a bow and arrow easier than others but as an archer you need to ultimately choose what works best with your goals, abilities and personality.

If you're gonna learn an aiming techinique for bowhunting besides aiming Instinctively the closer you can get your point on to 20 or 30 yrds. the easier it is to reference your arrow tip in most hunting situations if you're gonna use your arrow tip as a visual reference.

With some people...like myself...getting a Point On that close would also require shooting a low weight bow with a heavy slow arrow...which is something I wouldn't recommend for hunting...so you might have to accept that your Point On maybe 40 or 50yrds...which is still better for hunting circumstances than 70 or 90yrds.

You can do that a number of ways. One is to shoot 3 Under as oppossed to Split Finger. Another is to raise your anchor point and in most cases an archer will have to do both to get that Point On to closer distance.

Learning to aim with Gap Aiming is easier to master than learning to aim Instinctively. It should only take a couple of shots to know what your gap is for a specific distance whereas aiming Instinctively can take 100's to 1000's of shots to engrain the correct sight picture and bow arm position into your muscle memory and subconscious for a specific distance.

Instinctive Aiming has it's advantages in most hunting citcumstances where the archer doesn't have time to think about distance and their gap such as shooting at moving targets or when an animal appears out of no where and the shot needs to be taken in a matter of seconds. So if you are also wanting an aiming techinique where you're not consciously analizing the situation and you just want to keep it simple by just picking a spot to focus on to point and shoot at...Instinctive Aiming will most likely be the better choice.

Gap shooting can also be very effective in many hunting circumstances. I can vouche for that      

Based on my own personal experience with Gap Aiming, Gap Aiming has nearly become totally Instinctive to me to the point where I feel my gaps rather than analize exactly what they are. My mind knows it when it sees it but I couldn't tell anyone exactly what they are for a specific distance but I'm still consciously aware of them.

If you are gonna primarily or only be a bowhunter I would suggest learning Instinctive Aiming if you have the time and skills to dedicate yourself to mastering it.

If you want to bowhunt and compete in archery tournaments, I would suggest learning Gap Aiming.

Whatever aiming techinique you choose, you're still gonna need to take time, dedication and perseverence to master it. It's just that some aiming techiniques are easier to learn to become more accurate and consistant with than some of the other aiming techiniques....especially at longer distances.

Ray    

[pooahl]

I shoot instinctive out to 35 yards and gap from there. 3D shoots I attend often have shots beyond 40, so it helps to have a system for longer targets.  I limit my hunting shots to 20ish.  Some claim to shoot longer shots instinctively, but to be consistent, you'll need to at least learn by aiming. Other guys in my club shoot gap exclusively and are very good, especially in that elusive 35-45 range. This is very much a personal choice based on how it feels to you, so give everything a try with plenty of shots.

Also, I have both Masters of the Barebow dvds and they're very good, absolutely worth buying.

[SteveB]

Gap and shoot until it becomes automatic or "instinctive". Much shorter learning curve to proficiency for most.


Steve

[zetabow]

Learn them all.

Most of the top tourney shooters I know do, you become a very adaptable shooter that can deal with most shooting scenarios.

[Daddy Bear]

In the words of Howard Hill:

"Aiming instinctively is fairly simple and easy to master and is used by more archers in hunting than any other methods. Instinctive style is the easiest on the individual, in this style there is no set rule of posture or anchor. You do what is most natural for you to do.

My own method might be called the "Indirect Imaginary Point" method. The better shot you are instinctively, the easier this system will be for you to grasp, however, after learning the fundamentals of archery which I have given a few points on rather briefly, anyone, can with diligent practice and the reading of this and other articles gain by doing so." -Howard Hill

The above came from:

HILL, HOWARD My Method of Shooting a Bow and Arrow Los Angeles, Ca. Instinctors, Inc.. Soft Cover. Booklet No. 1 published by Instinctors, Inc. No date; circa 1951 (President of Instinctors mention of having just seen the rushes of "Tembo", Howard Hill's legendary movie). Stapled softcover; size: octavo. 3-ring binder holes. Great photographic cover of Hill about to shoot from a kneeling position. 16 pages; photo-illustrated. Facsimile signed letters from the President of Instinctors, Inc. to Howard Hill, and Hill's answering letter. The article by Hill takes up 6 pages, with 3 photos of his shooting style. The remainder of the book consists of archery-related ads.

This booklet is rare and I've currently found only one copy at a cost of $150. A fellow stickbow archer has a copy and shared it for free here:

 http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=182751&messages=29&CATEGORY=5

I now have the file of the entire booklet saved on my computer for easy reading if you would like a free copy.

later,
Daddy Bear

[BLACK WOLF]

"Aiming instinctively is fairly simple and easy to master and is used by more archers in hunting than any other methods. Instinctive style is the easiest on the individual, in this style there is no set rule of posture or anchor. You do what is most natural for you to do."

Fundamentally...I totally agree.

Instinctive Aiming is the easiest to learn because you just do what comes naturally....but that's where I would draw the line based on what I have seen in archery competitions and teaching new archers when it comes to making claims of easiest or hardiest.

When it comes to developing and maintaining consistant accuracy...Instinctive Aiming isn't as easy to master as the other aiming techiniques...especially as the distances get further. It may be for some people...but when you take into consideration the average Joe...it isn't.

Instinctive Aiming requires 100's if not 1000's of arrows to engrain the subconscious with the proper body position and/or sight picture to hit a target consistantly...but with the other aiming techiniques...it should be just a matter of a couple of arrows to know what your gap should be or your point of aim.

In many cases this learning curve is stretched out when an archer tries to learn both form and aiming at the same time...and that applies to any aiming techinique.

The more inconsistant an archer's form is...the harder it is to learn an aiming techinique.

Ray  

[Bradd]

Learn to GAP until it become 'instinctive.'  In truth, they are one and the same.  One is conscious effort, the other one is not.  One takes effort to learn, the other one does not but instinctive takes more time to do properly AND consistently.

"The more inconsistant an archer's form is...the harder it is to learn an aiming techinique." PERFECT!

[Terry Green]

Concious is NOT the same as subconcious.

So, in truth, they are not the same.  No where near the same.  Wont ever be the same.

[BLACK WOLF]

I totally agree with Terry.

A better word may be 'similar' but not the 'same'.

They are 'similar' in the sense that they are BOTH barebow aiming techiniques.

They are 'similar' in the sense that some, if not all, Instinctive archers rely on a sight picture to fine tune their aiming but it happens within their subconscious and most Instinctive archers are not even aware of doing it...which is why some will say they don't aim at all or don't use any kind of reference.

That's the best way they know how to explain it...but scientifically...the only time an archer isn't using a sight picture one way or another is if they are blind or shooting in total darkness.

A Gap shooter is ALWAYS CONSCIOUSLY aware of their sight picture and their aiming references to some degree or another.

Whereas an Instinctive shooter is ONLY CONSCIOUSLY aware of the target and not any other reference within their sight picture.

So Gap and Instinctive aiming can share some similarities...they are still NOT EXACTLY the same.

The same can be said of using sights and using the arrow. They can share some similaraties...yet they are NOT EXACTLY the same.

Ray    

[BLACK WOLF]

Some good scientific related reading on the subject of aiming and/or how an archer can aim instinctively can be found at these links if anyone is interested in studing it more.

 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V8T-47733K6-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f2d3935d3e2baf29 4a7655d70db2da4c

 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050526225858.htm

Ray  

[freefeet]

Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
They are 'similar' in the sense that some, if not all, Instinctive archers rely on a sight picture to fine tune their aiming but it happens within their subconscious and most Instinctive archers are not even aware of doing it...which is why some will say they don't aim at all or don't use any kind of reference.

I do not use any visual reference on any weapon i am using when shoot instinctively.  It is not that i am not aware that i am doing it, it is that i am completely aware that i am not doing it.

I do not need to, nor do i, use the view of the weapon at all in my sight picture because the weapon is in my hands and i am perfectly capable of knowing instinctively through my muscles position where the weapon is pointed.

Stand me in the complete dark, light only the target and i will still hit the target and i've only been shooting bow four weeks.

I started shooting bow instinctively because it seemed the only sensible thing to do with a weapon without sights.  My teacher had to show me what gap shooting was last week, i tried it and couldn't hit the target.

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by freefeet:
I do not use any visual reference on any weapon i am using when shoot instinctively.  It is not that i am not aware that i am doing it, it is that i am completely aware that i am not doing it.

I do not need to, nor do i, use the view of the weapon at all in my sight picture because the weapon is in my hands and i am perfectly capable of knowing instinctively through my muscles position where the weapon is pointed.

Stand me in the complete dark, light only the target and i will still hit the target and i've only been shooting bow four weeks.

freefeet,

An easy test to shed some truth on this topic is to shoot in total darkness at lazer pointers on the x ring of a NFAA 300 round target at different distances and positions and shoot 2 or 3 arrows per target....say 1 target at 5yrds.,  1 at 10yrds., 1 at 15yrds. and 1 at 20yrds. and score them...if you shoot as good or better in the dark than when the lights are on...I'll believe that you don't use any visual references...BUT...if you do...you have to admit that you are using visual references if you want to believe it or not.

It's a pretty easy test to do...especially if you have access to an indoor range or have a basement long enough

Ray