G F Asbell's Shooting Stance in Dec/Jan TB

[Flashman]

G Fred discusses a different kind of shooting stance in the new Traditional Bowhunter of basically facing the target, bending the knees, bending and twisting the hips to shoot.  I went back to his old book on shooting (vol II) and it appears he was rather silent on shooting stance (from my quick review) other than to bend at the knees.  I practiced for past several days and think I like it.  My normal stance was facing at 45 degrees so this wasn't as big of change for me.  It forces you to really use your back to get a full draw.  I haven't decided whether it is for me but so far I am positively inclined.

[BLACK WOLF]

If it improves your accuracy for the specific circumstances you will be placed in...go for it.

It doesn't have to be 'text book' perfect. It just needs to be consistant and comfortable. That's one of the things that's great about this sport...there can be so many variations in how we do it.

That stance just doesn't quite work for me. I prefer to be in a stance that makes it easier to achieve and maintain consistant arm and shoulder alignment and it just feels uncomforatble to me.

Ray  

[MWM]

I also gave his stance a try. Results where very good. More back muscle used to draw, more consistent arrow placement and felt more natural. I wear glasses and this stance gives me a better view, not looking sideways through tri-focals.
After reading his books a few years ago I tried to "swing" my bow up and draw at the same time as he discribed it; but it didn't feel good.  With this stance it is a very natural movement both in a tree stand or on the ground.  I will stay with this stance.

[McDave]

I do believe that Fred's thinking has evolved over time on this point.  When I attended the instinctive shooting clinic at BW several years ago, pivoting the body to bring the shoulders into allignment was not a part of the course.  Now he says it is practiced during the course.

I learned pivoting the body from our own Terry Green, in his posts and video.  It has made me a much better shooter to have my shoulders in the same allignment for each shot, regardless of where my feet are, and a better hunter to not have to worry about moving my feet around to get them into any particular allignment.

Fred favors keeping the shoulders slightly open, whereas Terry favors having the shoulders square to the target.  I have always struggled with getting my shoulders completely square with the target.  Since reading the TBM article, I have been experimenting with leaving my shoulders a little open.  My feeling is that if the position of your shoulders is repeatable, you should be just as accurate one way as the other.  I feel a little more relaxed with my shoulders slightly open, and as Fred says, it does seem easier to get my back muscles engaged.  I believe my shoulder position is repeatable, since I bring my shoulders into as square a position as I can without any undue stress; when the undue stress starts is where I stop.  But I haven't tried this long enough to be sure of anything yet.

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by McDave:
Fred favors keeping the shoulders slightly open, whereas Terry favors having the shoulders square to the target.

McDave do you mean perpindicular to the target?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by square.

Ray  

[McDave]

Probably a better way to put it is that Terry favors keeping the shoulders parallel with the arrow.  I was going to try to explain what I meant by "square," but I was never a whiz at geometry, so rather than dig myself in deeper, I'll just leave it at that.

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by McDave:
Probably a better way to put it is that Terry favors keeping the shoulders parallel with the arrow.

OK...now I understand ya            That's how I prefer my shoulders also...parallel to the arrow        

Ray      

[artvin]

Regardless what stance you take your alignment should be with the arrow shaft.  From your bow hand back through the arrow to your draw hand elbow.This automatically will put your shoulders in the correct relationship to the arrow.

The major shooting form flaw a lot of shooters have is they do not get their draw arm elbow back in line with the arrow. If this is not done it could cause right or left arrows. By having the elbow in line with the shaft you can get off the string cleanly with out flicking it.

No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.  

Art

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by artvin:
No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.  

Art

That depends on what kind of target and situation they are in.

I've personally seen and witnessed plenty of top shooters that look like they are shooting under a branch as they hit aerial target after aerial target.

But if you're talking about top archers in typical target archery competitions such as the Olympics or Field Courses...than I agree with ya  

Ray  

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by artvin:
No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.  

Art

I dissagree as well, and they don't have to be shooting arials.  I know a lot of top bowhunters that do, and they don't do competition....but they sure kill a lot of game.  Bowhunting is not target archery.

You don't HAVE to stand up straight, and you don't HAVE to lean over....but it sure is nice to be able to do both as it will open up a lot more opportunities at game being a more vesitile bowhunter with more than one shot in his bag.

[Terry Green]

Also, if your shoulders are not perpendicular to the target, you will be relying on more muscle than bone structure to hold the bow on target.  The more you muscle the bow, the more torque you will have to fight.

This may or may not be a problem in the back yard, or perfect shot opportunities. But if you have to create and manufacture a shot in the field stressing and taxing the muscles in those positions will cause inaccuracies as it will be harder to fight the torque.

[John Havard]

I have to agree with Terry when it comes to having the versatility to bend over and shoot under a branch if a hunting situation calls for it.  But I totally support Art's point that the best, most accurate shooters I know will always stand up straight and align their shoulders with the arrow whenever targets or game animals permit.  

I would never claim to be an excellent shot but I certainly shoot better when I assume a "proper" target stance.  If my hunting circumstance allows me to take such a stance - that's what I'll do.  If I have to bend way over and shoot under a branch I'll do that if that's required.  In fact, all of my shooting/hunting buddies and I regularly practice some pretty off-the-wall shots at 3D targets just to develop those weird aiming skills.  

If it helps someone shoot better to bend over and hunker down before drawing their bow then more power to them.  Standing up straight and aligning my shoulders with the arrow shaft works best for me whenever conditions permit.  I will only bend over and hunker down if I'm having to shoot under a branch.

[Terry Green]

John, you can have, and should have, your shoulders aligned with the arrow whether you stand straight up or bend at the waist as proper alignment is from the waist up.  You can take your shoulder alignment with you by not only bending forward, but backwards as well and by rotating right and left. That's the beauty of proper alignment, and the gift to the bowhunter.

If anyone wants more info on proper alignment, all you have to do is do a search on this forum for the word 'alignment' and you'll get about 7 pages worth of info.

[champ38]

I started shooting this way about a year ago(both toes pointing towards the target,feet side by side)as I swing/draw,I bend the knees and rotate at the waist,so at anchor my shoulders are pointing at the target - it was at this time I finally got the hang of pulling with my back muscles,and upon release my hand slides back across my face and ends up on my shoulder.Not sure what it was about the rotation at the waist, but it improved my accuracy , not to mention making shots out of stands.

[zetabow]

Originally posted by artvin:
Regardless what stance you take your alignment should be with the arrow shaft.  

No top shooters look like they are shooting under a branch when they shoot unless they are in fact shooting under a branch.  

Art

Spot on Art, everybody is built different so no one method will work for everybody but as long as basic priciple of arrow alignment is followed then you have no problems.

I've shot a quite a few world\\European Field\\3D tourneys and only ever met one top Archer with strange stance, he's Austrian and stands with his back to the target and twists round to shoot, when I asked why he said he had a previous broken arm and it's the only way he can get clearence to shoot, he shoots pretty nice scores.

[Daddy Bear]

Originally posted by McDave:
I do believe that Fred's thinking has evolved over time on this point.  When I attended the instinctive shooting clinic at BW several years ago, pivoting the body to bring the shoulders into allignment was not a part of the course.  Now he says it is practiced during the course.

I learned pivoting the body from our own Terry Green, in his posts and video.  It has made me a much better shooter to have my shoulders in the same allignment for each shot, regardless of where my feet are, and a better hunter to not have to worry about moving my feet around to get them into any particular allignment.

Fred favors keeping the shoulders slightly open, whereas Terry favors having the shoulders square to the target.  I have always struggled with getting my shoulders completely square with the target.  Since reading the TBM article, I have been experimenting with leaving my shoulders a little open.  My feeling is that if the position of your shoulders is repeatable, you should be just as accurate one way as the other.  I feel a little more relaxed with my shoulders slightly open, and as Fred says, it does seem easier to get my back muscles engaged.  I believe my shoulder position is repeatable, since I bring my shoulders into as square a position as I can without any undue stress; when the undue stress starts is where I stop.  But I haven't tried this long enough to be sure of anything yet.

I've read the article and find it has merit and value. It mirrors many accepted practices of training to shoot in tactical situations and is worthy of use in archery hunting.

I do not take this as a method that favors poor shoulder alignment. In fact, the purpose of the proper rotation is to favor proper shoulder alignment. As to target archery, this technique was used by the great Richard Mckinney to shoot and win many world titles. Anyone who saw him shoot would note that he obtained correct shoulder alignment through rotation without bending of the knees. Bending of the knees make it even easier to obtain.

This technique is all about proper stance and proper movement techniques while facing a threat, and in this case properly facing the direction a game animal may show up, and then being able to naturally flow into proper shoulder alignment with minimum movement through rotation. I find this most helpful when I'm hunting small game afoot and it is well worthy of including in your skill set. This technique and the rotation can also be applied while shooting from a stool, tree seat, or stand.

[Terry Green]

That's the beauty of proper alignment, you can rotate or bend at the waist and still have good form for a shot. If you have poper alignment standing straight up, and then bend at the waist you haven't lost your form.

Good form is not limited to one statuesque position.  Thankfully for the bowhunter.

There's some info on The Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD on this as well.

[3undr]

I realize that Fred is suggesting this stance for hunting situations, but try shooting at a target 180 degrees from the way your standing.    I don't want to move my feet to make the shot.

[Daddy Bear]

180 degrees from the way you're standing is behind you, Fred's suggested stance makes this easy without moving your feet. Check out the last shot in the video:

 

[Dozer]

I always stand with my left foor in front of my right. Which way my toes point or how wide my stance is makes no difference. I find this helps encourage proper shoulder alignment.
Fred also suggests that his forward facing stance would cut down on the deer seeing you move. The way I feel, is that if a deer sees you move a leg forward then he's with out a doubt gonna bust you on the draw, which will take a lot more movement. I will chose the stance that encourages good shoulder alignment which means the left foot will always, in some way or another, be in front of the right. I can think of no hunting situation where this could not be achieved.
All in all though, I believe it boils down to what your comfortable with.