Is "target panic" as common as is presented? If so we have serious issues.

[J-KID]

Todd,
I emailed the drills to you.

[J-KID]

Chris,
I really like the double anchor.  I too shoot much better when I make sure both points are locked in.  I also like the shooting clock, though I don't personally shoot that way, and think it probably demonstrates perfect form.  I personally stand with both feet facing the target like I'd be in a small tree stand.  I think Asbell wrote an article about that recently in TBM.  It has always been most comfortable for me and conducive to my hunting style.  I'm not familiar with the Welch style but I've seen the DVD's that are available.  I'll have to check them out.

[2Blade]

I figured since I too suffer from this I would share my experience. When I first got in to trad 3 years ago I never knew such a thing existed. Then I started to snap shoot thinking that since I shot trad snap shooting was the thing to do. Well, it worked for a while then I just started shooting faster and faster. I also suffer from Anxiety so once I started making bad shots the Anxiety would set it then it had me. I tried to shoot through it but anyone who had/has it knows its not really possible.

Not to mention I use to read threads about it on forums and I think that also helped put it in my head I wish I would have never read about it I really think it made it worse. I believe Terry is making smart move by not reading about it and putting monsters in his head like he said. Fortunately with a clicker and Jay Kidwells book I have it pretty well under control now to where I can make controlled accurate shots. I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel but I don't think I will ever be totally rid of it. I think I will always be working on something but I know I can control it enough to where im comfortable shooting at game animals.

[Dartwick]

I still dont buy that any but a tiny minority of people could be unable to come to anchor if they concentrate on it.

It just doesnt make sense. Its one thing to have an urge to release to soon, its quite another to be unable to control your body.

Im not saying that urge isnt a problem and it would require effort to overcome it. But to be actually thinking about pulling back the bow and but unable to make your body respond is a more extreme issue.

I still dont buy that any but a tiny minority of people could be unable to come to anchor if they concentrate on it.

I sincerely hope you never find out.

[J-KID]

I know many feel that the less they know about target panic the less chance they have of developing a case of target panic.  At an intuitive level this does make sense.  The actual research tells us the opposite.  A healthy understanding of these types of psychological problems actually diminishes the chance that one will ever suffer from the problem.  There are numerous psychological problems that have decreased in direct relationship to the increase in the general populations knowledge of the problem.  For example, hysteria, glove anesthesia and the vapors have all decreased in direct proportion to educating the public at the college level to their existence.  They have gone from common psychological disorders to fairly rare disorders.  Even panic attacks, which still have a fairly high level of occurrence, are much less severe among those who have been educated to their cause and symptoms.  I do not believe that learning about target panic will increase the likelihood that one will develop a case of target panic.  I firmly believe that the more you know about it the less likely it is you will develop a case, and if you do, it will be much less intense.  Of course, the perfect scenario would be to both educate and prevent with the intervention drills.

[East Coast archer]

Jay

You mention drills in your post to Todd.  Do you mean the 3 stages in your last chapter or did I miss them in your book somewhere else.  Thanks.

[J-KID]

Vince,
The stages include the drills.  I think I have added a couple based on recent experiences.  I PM'd the info to you that I sent to Todd.

[East Coast archer]

Thanks, sent ya a return pm.

[Steve B.]

I'm  not going to try to define the terms but I'll give my 2 cents and hope it helps:

I got over my pre-mature release and gave others the same advice to help them and it worked.  Basically, its what Dartwick is saying about just concentrating.  The first step is knowing and admitting that you have bad form and then you can take steps to correct it....at least the issue that I had.

While working through it I realized why I was doing it.  I think it has to do with my subconscious knowing, or believing, what is best for my form in order to accurately hit the target.  When I came to full draw my mind had a harder time controlling all of the variables that were going to throw the arrow off target.  I consciously focused on the different elements of my form but my shots were inconsistent anyway and my mind could not get a hold of the problem and became confused and the whole process snowballed into a psychological turmoil.

So the subconscious fix is to not put myself into the state of high stress that occurs at full draw, where tension is maxed.  Instead, at some point during the draw, or even when fully drawn, my subconsious would get an instantaneous spike when all elements of the form felt just right and would release the arrow.

It haunted me on and off for years and when I figured this all out I went to the range alone and vowed to get over it that day.  And I did.  But I had to, in a sense, start all over, and rule #1 became, "shooting a trad bow is all about coming to full draw, that is the focus, and not coming to full draw is not an option."
I had to get angry about it and I had to just concentrate on every shot and make sure I had the draw for a second or two and then release.  

I didn't care about arrow flight or where I hit on the target.  Success became a fully draw shot.  I did that until it became second nature and then I moved on to the next element.

[McDave]

I've read Kidwell's chapter on target panic several times, and what he says about target panic as a conditioned reflex makes a lot of sense.  I also believe his drills to prevent or cure target panic will work for people.

I think Steve B. is hitting on an important issue above, however, that I would like to discuss.  He says, "When I came to full draw my mind had a harder time controlling all of the variables that were going to throw the arrow off target. I consciously focused on the different elements of my form but my shots were inconsistent anyway and my mind could not get a hold of the problem and became confused and the whole process snowballed into a psychological turmoil."

If I am reading him correctly, he had anxiety because he was focusing during his shot on elements of his shooting form that were not coming together as they should have.  I think this feeling of anxiety is one reason we have target panic in archery, but don't develop a similar conditioned reflex in some other activity that requires actions to be performed in a timed sequence.  If the timed sequence in some other activity did result in anxiety, then maybe there would be some equivalent of target panic in that activity also.

I think a lot could be done to reduce target panic if the anxiety that the shot was not coming together as it should could be reduced.  So how do we do that?

I think the best way to do that would be to do something that I have had preached at me my whole archery life, but have never really practiced much.  That is, to separate working on form from shooting for accuracy.  Kidwell also mentions this in his book, that we can't expect to hit what we're shooting at unless 100% of our concentration is on the target.

That means that zero percent of our concentration can be focused on our shoulder allignment, our back tension, our bow arm, and whether we are coming to full draw.  If we are focusing zero percent of our focus on those things when we are shooting for accuracy, they shouldn't be able to cause us much if any anxiety.

On the other hand, when we work on form, by shooting at a blind bale at close range with no target, we can focus 100% of our attention on whatever form element or elements we want to work on, and zero percent of our attention on hitting anything in particular.  Since we're not trying to hit anything, I would think this would be a low anxiety situation also.

I don't think this bifurcation would be effective in solving hard core cases of target panic, but might work as a preventative or in cases where target panic hasn't really grabbed hold.

[J-KID]

There is tremendous wisdom here that is coming from people who are dedicated to their sport and have committed themselves to improvement in that sport.  The avenues taken to discover the answers come from different directions and all of the insights gained along the way, buy each explorer searching for the answer, offers a valuable piece of information.  All those pieces of information will at some point converge to paint a clear picture of what we all search for.

 

I think this feeling of anxiety is one reason we have target panic in archery, but don't develop a similar conditioned reflex in some other activity that requires actions to be performed in a timed sequence. If the timed sequence in some other activity did result in anxiety, then maybe there would be some equivalent of target panic in that activity also.

Many professional golfers have had to give up the professional pursuit of their game because they developed a case of the "yips" with their putting.  I recently talked to a fellow archer who at one time was a promising professional golfer that had to leave the sport because of the "yips."  When a person gets the yips they putt the ball prematurely (before they complete the back swing with the putter) and they cannot compete with that loss of control.  Slight changes in equipment can help.  The belly putter was actually invented by someone trying to cure the yips.  It works for a while and many golfers use them till they develop the yips and then they switch to the claw grip then something else.

   

I think the best way to do that would be to do something that I have had preached at me my whole archery life, but have never really practiced much. That is, to separate working on form from shooting for accuracy. Kidwell also mentions this in his book, that we can't expect to hit what we're shooting at unless 100% of our concentration is on the target.

That means that zero percent of our concentration can be focused on our shoulder allignment, our back tension, our bow arm, and whether we are coming to full draw. If we are focusing zero percent of our focus on those things when we are shooting for accuracy, they shouldn't be able to cause us much if any anxiety.

Most people will admit that they shoot their best when they just go on autopilot, focus on the spot and let their body do it's thing without conscious input.  As soon as we begin to think about what we are doing we mess things up.  That is why accomplished shooters preach that form should take place in front of a "blank bail" concentrating on form and with no thought given to accuracy.  Once you have committed the new form to memory and do it on autopilot, you step back and allow that new form to express itself, on its own, as you shift your focus 100% downrange to the spot.

[onewhohasfun]

I also see many direct correllations between archery and golf. The time to work on your form is at the driving range, not while playing a round. While working on your form the end result of putting all together should be to develop a rythmn. Seperate your form drills from other shooting. The proper rythmn should be a compilation of all the work drills. Think rythmn and pick a spot.

[Steve B.]

McDave,
What I was trying to not get too long-winded about is better said like this:

If I could somehow shoot a bow that was weightless and had zero draw weight I would do very well because my mind knows exactly how I need to orient my arms and body in order to hit that spot.  When I introduce all the tensions and stress inherent in a hunting weight bow my mind now has to work to keep that form.  The lower the tension, the lower the distractions.  
So it's "easier" to stay in form if I don't come to full draw.  This is where bow draw weight is critical.  

The problem is that I can't use a 40 lbs. bow to kill an elk.  So if I am going to use a 60 lbs. bow I am going to have to train myself to do so, and that means overcoming that subconscious command to shoot because any further increase in stress is making it increasingly difficult to stay on target.  I have to make conscious decisions to overcome my subconscious.  So premature release is not an option.

[bucksakemmer]

I have suffered from panic for several years now. It started with compounds and it got so bad I was on the verge of not hunting. I changed to trad and was doing ok but it has come back. What I go thru is the uncontrollable urge to release, I have this " fear that if I dont shoot now I will miss the chance" the only thing that I can do is blind bale practice which is helping but it has not cured it. I have had a good compound coach tell me that every archer will have it at sometime , some will have it worse than others.
The comparison to golf is correct, these are two  sports where form and concentration come in contact with pressure.

[dragonheart]

Steve b.

Just an obswervation, but the major difference between shooting a bow and shooting a firearm, you are never totally relaxed in your muscles shooting a bow.

[nocksalot]

Jay,

You are the man!

I worked your drills this past weekend and now feel in complete control of my shot...amazing stuff. Perhaps I did not have "it" as bad as others to be successful this quickly.

To add a brief personal note to others dealing with this topic...relax and stay calm when doing Jay's drills. If you feel any anxiety, go back to step #1.

Many Thanks Jay,
Todd

[J-KID]

To add a brief personal note to others dealing with this topic...relax and stay calm when doing Jay's drills. If you feel any anxiety, go back to step #1.

Excellent advice Todd.  By doing that you actually create an new association between anxiety and relaxation which desensitizes you to future anxiety.  I'm going to make a note to add that to any revisions I do with my book.  Thanks.

[J-KID]

dragonheart, the "flinch" which shooters develop is learned in a similar way as target panic in archery.  That is just another example of learning through association.  You get rid of that by dry firing then mixing live ammo with dummy ammo.

[Raven]

Great stuff!! I'am a recovering "TP" man. What worked for me was reading and using J-Kid book. Best money I have spent. It didn't happen over night but with time and work I have beat the "Beast". I now shoot like I did in years past if not better!!

 "Dicipline the Mind and the Body will follow"
 Easy to say but sometimes hard to do. But if you put your mind to it and take small steps you'll be running in no time! Now that hunting seasons are over, it's a good time to read Jays book and get on the path to "TP" recovery.

 Good Luck to all who are dealing with "TP"!!!!

 Perfect practice makes for perfect play!


 Raven >>>>---------->