3d target placement at shoots??

[BillW]

I saw a thread on another site that talked about this topic. I wonder what the opinion here is?

Last weekend I shot a 3d shoot and I thought the setup was VERY challenging (maybe too).... Now I don’t complain about distances but I don’t think the compound guys that set the Trad stakes don’t understand our instinctive aiming style.
This shoot was a league shoot that travels around our area (6 clubs) so every club sets up differently and there are numerous shooter classes. Most of these clubs are predominantly Compound shooters.

In our league the Trad stakes are supposed to be no more than 28 yards. They did have a couple that were over (30 yards) but on a 30 target course only 2 targets were under 21 yards….

Now here is my point and issue with just placing a distance limit. They had all medium to smaller targets. The Rinehart Big Ten was the biggest target, they had the small deer targets, pig and wolf at 25 plus yards (Rinehart standing Grizzly was @ 30 yards)... See what I mean? I think you need to have smaller targets closer at say 15-18 yards, med targets at 18-25 yards and big targets at the 28 yard max. By BIG targets I am talking about a Caribou, Moose or Elk. If the setup is right, I might even say the Big Ten deer or Mule deer at 28 but maybe just once. I think the guys that setup a course need to have instinctive shooting explained in a way that it does not sound like complaining. Really, think about it. On a compound site setup depending on your bow speed, you have 1/8-1/4” gap to compensate for 10 yards…. Now consider how close an instinctive guy must repeat hand placement? If the instinctive guy is off ½” (slower bow) he could miss by a foot. Now a foot off on a small target means a miss.

Before I say something to our league board, does my logic track true with you guys? I have been at this for a while and am a pretty good shot BUT anyone just  starting off will feel really bad if he thinks he should be shooting a coyote in the ten ring when it is at 26 yards. That coyote to me should be placed more like 18 yards max (as I said before).
 
I understand the whole competition thing, and I get it. I also know some of the old NFAA archers would laugh at my issues/points. My perspective is I do this as a practice for hunting. I think a course aught to stretch what I would shoot a real critter (size vs distance) a bit to make it both challenging and practical practice.

So, What do you think about this kind of philosophy being applied to a course setup?

Thanks, Bill

[Str8Shooter]

I certainly understand where you are coming from. For a beginner or intermediate level shooter a course should be close enough so shooters are relatively certain of making kill shots. It can be demoralizing to go to a course and have a lot of shots that you know are past you comfortable range.

That said, I feel that 3D serves two purposes. First, it is a form of hunting practice. Targets shaped like animals we hunt and in realistic settings. Second, it should provide some challenge to your skill level so you can learn your limits and develop as an archer. I've been to a few shoots that were set up by people who only want gimme shots. Maybe 5 targets out of 50 past 20 yards and those were the big ones. There were a lot of decent scores but no one I spoke with found the course challenging.

One of the local clubs I go to has a very cool setup philosophy. They set three stakes at each target. They apply to both traditional and compound shooters. The closest stakes are beginner stakes, second are the bowhunter stakes, and third are the trophy stakes. Beginner stakes are close enough (maybe 20 max) to encourage developing shooters. The bowhunter stakes are a little bit more challenging. Distances go out to perhaps 30-35 yds on large targets but they mix in some odd angles and slight obstructions. The trophy class is for anyone who wants to really challenge themselves. Shots out to 50+, some very tricky angles, and several "trashy" shots. It's a great idea because it allows the shooter to pick the level and difficulty they wish to shoot.

Chris

[saumensch]

A lot of clubs in Germany also do the three- or at least two-stake thing. The only problem with that can be that some "fellow-archers" may start making jokes on people using the beginnersdistances, disregarding they were beginners once, too.
There are also a lot of traditional-only ranges, wich i personally find sad as my best shooting/hunting bud is a wheelie bow man and i love shooting with him, no matter what he uses.

But to youre question BillW, i think for normal days at ranges/clubs the distances should be as you say. On competition days/ trophy shoots i can understand that people want to raise the challenge to get clearer results or more challenge for a win.

Regards

[BillW]

Chris, I am guessing we know eachother... I sent you an email with more thoughts.

Bill

[sweet old bill]

When I go to a shoot with my recurve I sure hope that they have me shooting at around what I would consider a max shot for hunting and that is 25 yards. I years ago in 1970 use to shoot NFAA targets with 70 inch recurve browning bow. I would love that 80 yard shot, to draw and hold about 22 ft above the target to get a hit. NOw for me the score is did I keep all my arrows in the kill on 3D targets and did I come back with the same amount of arrows I started with...I have my own range of 22 locations to shoot and each location has two 3D on them, I use the two stake for each location one for traditional and one for compound. The compound is a max of 35 yards and the trad is a max of 25 max. But most trad shots run more in the line of 20 to 22 yards max.

Bill
aim small to hit your game

[SHOOTO8S]

In the past I've often campaigned for longer shots...but have come to the realization that when using all the scoring rings(11's 12's) you can have a very challenging short range for everyone, and still not discourage the new guys.

[WestTnMan]

We have a bunch of trad shooters that usually set up the course for our shoots. Compounds and traditional shoots. Traditional stakes are probably 15 - 25 avg. with longer shots at bigger targets. We my bump one on out there but if you miss it will have a backstop or area where you wont loose an arrow (hopefully). We also might have a close shot that has the stake on top of a log so you have to stand on the log or put one foot up there on the stake. Close shots can be just a challenging with a little creativity. Compound shooters typically want the targets square, long and wide open. Our traditional stake is anything but square, long wide open. We usually mess with the compound shooters on a target or two and might put a deer at 45 yds and tilt it forward. Makes the 10 ring really small. I would suggest helping set up and volunteering to set the traditional stakes. If they don't shoot from it they don't know how traditional shooter want to shoot.

[BillW]

Hi Rod, That is also my point. In this league we have a 12 ring. No one has shot perfect yet... LOL

Anyhow it is supposed to be fun, I have fun regardless, and make the best out of a tough setup. I want everyone of all skill level to have fun. Sometimes a guy wants to turn in a score card and not move up so he sticks to shooting at the stakes. He is measuring his own performance but what is the criteria he is measuring? Is it "How would I do in a hunting situation at a hunting distance?" "How would I do at an IBO shoot?" I think small targets set wrong, measures neither so this guy is getting bad internal feedback.

For me my simple goal is every arrow in the kill because I am a "Bowhunter". I just imagine these long shots as "Pushing my hunting limit" so that I can make the same (hopefully good) shot at "MY" definition of an ethical hunting distance... Probably 5 yards... Ha Ha

A little humor there but I think with some thought a club can set a course that is both challenging and fun for all. The elite can shoot for the 12 ring, that is why they are scored!

Thanks for the input. So far a couple of the guys who asked me to take this to our board have been appreciative so I guess it was the right thing to do.

Bill

[dragon rider]

Unless you're shooting for score, I've never been at any 3D shot where they cared where you shot from as long as you did it safely for you and people around you.  

When I switched from RH to LH after eye surgery, I rarely shot from the stake but instead relied on "my superior stalking skills"    to get within 10 to 15 yards of the animal in question and nobody cared.  

The few who asked why I was doing it seemed perfectly satisfied with the explantion, and generally enouraging about trying to overcome the challenge of the switch - apparently they too understood how much fun it is to go all day missing everything.

[bigbellybuck]

I don't care to voice my opinion of course setup to my shooting buddys, but I don't complain to the people who set the course up, because I figure if they volunteer to put in the WORK, they can set the course up the way they see fit. I wish they had more long shots at the ones I go to, but I do see your point about beginning archers.

[TSP]

There aren't many 3-D shoots around here that are less than a 90 minute drive one way and most of those are run for compound shooters, tend to be expensive ($12-$25) and the trad stakes are long shots at wide open targets.  Good for target practice using fast bows and flat arrows but not very good for hunting practice using hunting gear.  Shots from high points, stools, blinds, kneeling, through openings in brush and similar setups that mimic real hunting shots at normal distances aren't prevalent.  Use of light arrows and speed or target bows with accessories, even for trad, has reduced the 'hunting shoot' flavor and so the level of attendance and fun level is generally down.  I rarely go anymore.  Too bad really, but it is what it is.  

The good old days of challenging yet common-sense practice with like-minded folk, just looking for a good day in the great outdoors, are mostly a thing of the past.  It's all about scores now.  Too few people to help set up and take down courses, too much emphasis on beating the other guy and showing off the long shot.  The simple pleasure of shooting simple gear is disappearing in a cloud of gadgets and egos.  

When you think about it, you really can't blame regular guys for staying home and the younger set for finding something else to do.

[damascusdave]

Maybe the key here is your statement that in the league the stakes are to be at no more than 28 yards. Now someone put some thought into choosing that distance as maximum and the people who are setting targets at greater than that range are simply disrespecting, for whatever reason, the thinking that went into that limit.

It was their decision to go against accepted practice that opened this discussion and they ought not be the least surprised when someone calls it to their attention.

Of course once the discussion is opened your observations about target size relative to distance would also come into play.

[WestTnMan]

Originally posted by TSP:
The good old days of challenging yet common-sense practice with like-minded folk, just looking for a good day in the great outdoors, are mostly a thing of the past.  It's all about scores now.  

Not so....we meet every Tueaday after work at the outdoor range and set up a few targets and shoot for the fun of it. No scores kept. Yes it is a small group but it's growing. We all show up with three of four bows, tabs, gloves, different arrows ect. Try what you want and shoot what you want. It's all about having fun and friendship.

[TSP]

Enjoy it while you can, WestTnMan.  What is has a funny way of turning into what used to be.

[dragon rider]

Yeah, to hang onto what you have, it's best to avoid most, if not all, actions that are introduced by "wouldn't it be even better if we..."  and steadfastly avoid anything thought up by a committee.

[Ia Hawkeye]

Our club has different stakes for different classes. The trad guys set the trad stakes so not a problem.

[BigCnyn]

let the kids and newbies shoot were they want...

[MMilin]

Str8Shooter, Bill W., and I do most of our 3D shooting in the very SE corner of Wisconsin where we're blessed with well over a dozen active archery clubs.

Most clubs do a fine job of setting targets within reason (i.e. shots within 30 yards and at appropriately sized targets) for trad shooters.

One club, though, the one Bill referred to, is notorious for overly challenging target placement.  And, by the way, their poor turnout of trad shooters can be explained by this recurring error.  They just don't learn . . .

Incidentally, before you dismiss Bill and Chris (Str8shooter) as whiners, consider that Bill regularly finishes in the top 3 in our local shoots, while Chris finished 2nd in his class at a very tough international competition held in Yankton, SD in mid-June.

Mark

[Floxter]

At our club we tend to use as a rule of thumb that the trad stake should be half the distance of the open stake. Under IBO rules, Open class has a 50yrd max and longbow has a 25yrd max. So if the open class shooters are required to shoot at a 50yrd coyote, we trad shooters are req'd to shoot at it from 25yrds. But if the open class has a 20yrd shot at a skunk, then the trad shooters have a 10yrd shot at it.

[Firstarrow]

Our club is made up of both compound and traditional shooters. I happen to be our tournament representative. We have a range set up through out the summer of 60+ Rhinehart targets, at our range we let people shoot from where they would like, but encourage ethical shots and shots under 40 yds.

We have two major tournaments and several fun shoots. The tournaments are set up with ranges out to 50 yds (max, the average shots we have set up have been 18 to 24 yds. Each shoot has two basic classes $ (money) shooters and fun shooters. At our indoor shoot all people shoot from the provided stakes. There are 10 +/- targets at 7+/- yds for the kids. One thing we try to emphasize is that there is NO shame in not shooting if the shot is outside of your capabilities. The outdoor shoots have the requirement that the money shooters shoot from the stakes, the others can shoot from where they want.

As the EVIL tournament director that I am I encourage the set up of our two booboo bears at 30 + yds but 5 to 10 ft off of a really big target.

I personally to shoot the shots that I hunt from. Nothing over 20 yds.