Question for Welch Graduates

[Landshark160]

Even though I developed it a couple years before I heard of him, my shooting style is very similar to what Rick Welch teaches.  So much so that I haven't really changed anything since watching his instructional shooting DVD other than developing a pre-shot routine.  I can shoot very well out to about 30 yards.  Beyond that my riser and bow hand come up high enough to block my view of the target, making me inconsistent.  My question is how does Rick deal with the longer shots when his line of sight to the target is obscured?

[McDave]

Using my cocked thumb knuckle touching the bottom of my earlobe as one anchor, and my nose against the back of the cock feather as another anchor, I find that my point-on distance is about 40 yards.  I believe this is also about where Rick's point-on distance is.  With a point-on distance of 40 yards, I can make shots out to 50 yards, or probably further if I wanted to, before my riser and bow hand would block the target.

Rick uses very lightweight arrows, by today's standards, and it is possible that if you're using heavier arrows, your point-on distance might be closer for that reason.

[dragon rider]

I think McDave is correct.  I saw Rick 10 ring a 3D turkey when I was at his school from a good 45 yards and probably a little more than that.  He uses, and recommends, arrows in 415 to 450gr range, which I'm sure extends his point on distance out to where 50 yards is not a problem.  I don't have actual measurements, but at the point that my bow hand and riser block the target I'm shooting well over it out to at least 50 yards.

[Tim Besmer]

This may be a little off the point, but I've heard Rick on video , say that many traditional shooters are over-bowed. Does any body know what poundage Rick W. shoots those 415 to 450 grain arrows?

[McDave]

Rick shoots 430-450 grain arrows in his 65# hunting bow.  I think the bow he shoots in competitions is around 40#, and he shoots 250-270 grain arrows in that bow.

[fountain]

is rick a stickler for bare shafting?

[McDave]

Rick is a stickler for NOT bare shafting.  He prefers arrows that would bare shaft weak.  For example, the 450 grain arrow he would shoot out of his 65# bow would probably be a Gold Tip 3555 cut to 29" with a 125 grain broadhead and no internal weights.  It would scare the heck out of me to shoot such an arrow out of a 65# bow, but it seems to work for him.

[RC]

He no doubt builds a heck of a bow if he warrents that grains to pound on the bows he sells.RC

[Landshark160]

Originally posted by McDave:
Rick is a stickler for NOT bare shafting.  He prefers arrows that would bare shaft weak.  For example, the 450 grain arrow he would shoot out of his 65# bow would probably be a Gold Tip 3555 cut to 29" with a 125 grain broadhead and no internal weights.  It would scare the heck out of me to shoot such an arrow out of a 65# bow, but it seems to work for him.

That's pretty interesting.  I shoot a Gold Tip 3555 cut to 29.75" with a 200 grain broadhead and a 100 grain insert out of my 64# Predator.  I do bareshaft, and these show just a tad weak for me out to 40 yards.  His arrows would be too stiff for my setup.

Do you have any idea what shaft and point combo he uses to build his 250-270 grain arrows?  I've been thinking about setting up a lower draw weight tournament bow.  

By the way McDave, thanks for the reply to my original question.  After reading your post, I went outside and shot, and figured it out.  At 30 yards, my arrow comes into my line of sight.  I was letting it distract me, and my focus would shift.  I found that if I stay focused on the target, I can look through the arrow and can shoot all the way back to about 40 or 45 yards with no problems.  If I go back to a full length 3555 with standard insert, I should be able to shoot to at least 50.

Thanks again!

[McDave]

Rick made a bow for me that is similar to the one he uses in tournaments.  He recommended that I use Gold Tip Ultralight 600 shafts, left full length with 50 grain points.  Since I am a little more conservative than he is about arrow weight, I cut the shafts back to 29" and used 75 grain points, which increased the overall arrow weight a little, but still bareshafted well (I bareshaft even if Rick doesn't).

It is very common to lose focus on the target as the arrow comes up into view.  I have to ask myself "Am I still focusing on the target?" because if I shift my focus to the arrow, or focus vaguely off somewhere in between, the shot is blown.  It's not where you're focusing when you start your draw that counts; it's where you're focusing when you release the arrow.

I asked Rick the question "How can you shoot instinctively at your point-on distance when the arrow is right up there in the target?"  His answer is that you're still shooting instinctively if your arrow happens to end up there; it's okay to notice it, so long as you didn't estimate the distance and place the arrow point there.

[Shinken]

Greetings McDave!

Just curious - did you change your arrow set up after taking the Oregon Rod Jenkins class OR did you leave it the same as you developed it after Rick's class?

Thanks.

Shoot straight, Shinken

[McDave]

I didn't change anything about my arrows.

These are the two things I changed as a result of attending Rod's class:

Increase in focus on maintaining back tension throughout the shot.  As a result, my string hand moves backwards after the shot, as opposed to staying in place as Rick teaches.  Some people have noticed an increase in arrow speed as a result of doing this, which could lead to them needing a stiffer arrow, but in my case, my old arrow set up seems to work fine.

Raising my drawing elbow, so it's a little bit higher than the arrow at full draw.  This helps with back tension.  I don't know that Rick has an opinion on this one way or the other, but Rod felt I would shoot better with a little higher elbow, which seems to be the case.

Did you change your arrow setup, David?

[Shinken]

Greetings David!

Thank you for the feedback.  No arrow setup changes for me - yet - but I was curious if the dynamic release that you are using needed an increase in arrow spine (or reduction in point weight) to get everything tuned just nice.

I am currently in the process (in week #3) of transitioning to LH shooting after 30+ years of RH shooting due to an unresolved right shoulder issue that has gotten progressively worse.

Things are moving forward slowly, but smoothly.  With a LH 45# Bear recurve and shooting 3 under instead of split I have chosen to integrate key features from both the Welch and Jenkins methods applying the dynamic release.  With the right lighter draw weight bow (less than 45# for me) the LH development should go quickly.

I have a couple of leads on some lightweight bows to really groove the shot and get consistent with expansion and conclusion on the blank bale and have narrowed the bow selection to two possibilities - one is 38# and the other is 25# - but I can only afford one and neither is available locally to try.  I am hoping to work a trade on the 38# bow, but no word yet on whether that will be successful.  Based on the shooting I am doing with the Bear bow, I do not intend to exceed 50# on my final max LH draw weight regardless of what draw length I end up at.

I wanted to thank you David (and all the others who have participated in the on-line discussions) for all of your comments regarding the Welch class and the Jenkins class (thanks to Snag for coordinating the one in Oregon - if it happens again, I hope to attend).  That detailed information really provides an effective resource for individuals not able to attend the classes, but do have access to the available DVDs (esp. MBB III and Welch Accuracy Factor).  Combing the currently available resources with the on-line dialogue exchange here on Trad Gang, it is definitely a virtual classroom!

Thanks again for sharing your effective comments David!

Have a great 2009 hunting season!

Shoot straight, David Camp

[chiroman48]

I just got back from Rick's class and I noticed a few misconceptions about his method of shooting/ arrow weight and length. Rick does not cut his carbons to a given length but rather moves the side plate in/ out to affect arrow flight/ point of impact/ etc. The bow he shot when I was there was a 62 lb. I believe he used the next spine up from the 3555 carbons. Also, Rick does not have a "point on" distance because he does not use the tip in any way to judge distance. He helped me more than all the other "master's" ever did and he changed EVERYTHING I was doing -much to my surprise!!

[zetabow]

Originally posted by chiroman48:
 He helped me more than all the other "master's" ever did

Of course he did, you've just had "one on one" training with him.

[dragon rider]

Originally posted by Shinken:

I am currently in the process (in week #3) of transitioning to LH shooting after 30+ years of RH shooting due to an unresolved right shoulder issue that has gotten progressively worse.

Things are moving forward slowly, but smoothly.  With a LH 45# Bear recurve and shooting 3 under instead of split I have chosen to integrate key features from both the Welch and Jenkins methods applying the dynamic release.  With the right lighter draw weight bow (less than 45# for me) the LH development should go quickly.
 

Based on my experience in making that same change, you're doing everything correctly.  I wound up making the change because of eye surgery, and it's proven to be well worth the effort.  Using a 35# bow until I got to the point that I was accurate with it, and then starting up again has worked very well.  At the moment, I'm shooting 45# and don't plan to go a lot higher.  I might go up to 50# if I go elk hunting but for whitetail and turkey 45# is more than enough.

Good luck with your transition.  I'm also sending you a PM.

[Shinken]

3000 LH shots later....

Got your PM Dragon Rider - thanks for the generous offer!

Yes, I have been groovin' my shot steadily with a 32# curve and have developed a strong shot sequence for delivering "the perfect arrow."  I did end up changing my LH anchor point distinctly 3 times until I found "THE ONE."

My greatest challenge that presents itself once in a while is when I begin to get tired and am shooting instinctively with both eyes open.  My dominant right eye begins to take control and while my elevation remains right on my windage changes with consecutive arrows beginning to move the left of the aiming point on the target.  If I choose to keep shooting at those times, I will simply squint or close my right eye to get back on to the bullseye, but I can tell that my aiming changes from "instintive" to more of "sighting down the barrel (arrow shaft)."

I have found that significant gains in my LH shooting form were made by graphically visualizing in as much detail as I could my shot sequence in my mind - amazingly - the breathing sequence that I use (similar to what Welch teaches) follows right along with the mental sequence as I visualize it - how's that for self-programming?  For the mental component I followed the guidance written by VIPER in his SHOOTING THE STICKBOW book.

Thanks again to all for asking good questions and for those that have gone before for and sharing their wealth of knowledge.  Technically, I am definitely shooting better LH than RH.  Of course, I am looking forward to the 2010 hunting season to see if it all carries through into the field!

Shoot straight, Shinken

[Shinken]

5500 LH shots later....

I thought it was time for a brief update.  I started my transition from RH shooting to LH shooting in September 2009.  I was blessed with A LOT OF HELP from members of the Trad Gang site and their Q&A discussions; and in combination with a couple of DVDs (MBB III and Accuracy Factory) and the book by VIPER (see previous post) I made remarkable progress.

I started out with a 45# LH curve and found it was TOO HEAVY so I picked up a 32# LH curve and never looked back.  After findin' the correct anchor point for LH shootin' I was able to shoot with both eyes open.

When I moved from the blind bale to targets, I found that shooting LH was way too EXPENSIVE!   I had to go to a 5 spot target face to quit bustin' so many arrows!!!

:~)

I am mixin' in some short range shootin' with the 45# curve to build some strength, but I am patiently waitin' for the arrival of my new LH hunting bow to start groovin' some longer range shots and doin' some serious stump shootin'!

There is some great information on this site for those who are seeking to learn - no excuses!

Have a great day!

Shoot straight, Shinken

[dragon rider]

Shinken,

Thanks for the update; that's great.  Keep up the good work, and any time you feel like posting good news, go right ahead.

[jerseyboy]

Rick dident say to block your view to the target. It would be impossible to shot at what you cant see. He said he gets ready before a deer comes to the spot he wants to shoot him at by raising his bow arm and using it to conceal himself a little, then draws and shoots. I have been doing this for years it works well. Whatever you can use to break up your outline to prevent deer from making you out is all good, but you still need to see through your sight window