Continued split finger shelf wear

[xtrema312]

Ok I have been working on this carbon arrow edge of shelf contact thing for a while now.  I got through hunting season ok, but had on and off issues.  I know a few more things from the last month or so of playing with stuff.  I sure could use some help.  Here is what I know so far.

Since changing to carbon arrows, a tab, and some form changes I have a shelf edge contact problem.

The problem is not eliminated by more nock height.

It happens on every bow I shoot.

I can shoot 3 under clean bullet holes in paper with the same nock height that gets shelf contact spit finger.

Weak arrows will eliminate the problem, but not until the arrows are very weak.   They are then high FOC and fly good, but don't bare shaft straight.  High FOC gets the bare shaft about in the group, but I don't know about BH's yet and I really want from the start clean flight.

From mirror work, and others observing I don't appear to change my general form or anchor between spit and 3 under.  My string elbow is fairly level and the same between the two styles.  I use the same finger to string hook and string to finger pressure.  I have the same release and follow through feel.  Draw length is the same or very close.

I have modified how I grip the bow on the draw so I can check for side string torque.  I watch the back of the arrow at full draw and anchored.  I can adjust my finger and hand to check for flexing of the shaft.  I can see flexing when I change finger pressure so I can adjust so things look good, and then pull through for the shot.  I still have an issue with what appears to be no flexing of the shaft before release.

The bow is jumping to the target nice with little or now odd twisting or kicking up or down.  I use a fairly light grip.

One thing I suspect is that I flex the arrow on release due to the way the string comes off my fingers.  Maybe I have too much pressure on the wrong fingers, or one of my fingers is dragging on the release split finger shooting.

I am also wondering if too high a nock can cause this by flexing the shaft up then down on the riser.  I am going to try nock set below 1/2".  I have been told may times to raise the nock, but now I wonder.  I am at 5/16" now with bullet holes 3 under.  I have been less than 1/2".  I will try 3/8" and under to see.  Last time I did I didn't get it worked out, but maybe there was another factor.

The only other thing I can come up with is something in the hand angle due to the difference in string grip angle.  I will bring out the camcorder when weather permits to see if I can catch something close up on release.

If you have an idea of what to try on finger tension or anything else, please let me know.  I have tried some variations, but nothing has proven effective yet. I just switched over to all paper shooting the last couple days just so I can see exactly what happens on each shot.   Maybe I will pick up on it quicker that way when I run through different finger positions and string tension changes.

[Cable Guy]

I dont know what I can offer in terms of tuning wisdom, so I wont 'cause I'll sound like a fool, but when I find myself in such funks....I just put the bow down for the day and regain focus doing something else....great fly fishing in MI.

[freefeet]

Have you tried putting a nock above and below the arrow?  If you just have one above you can push the arrow down the string on release.

[xtrema312]

I have put it down a couple days and I do have nock both above and below.

Yesterday I had two short and cold shooting sessions.  I shoot some good shots through paper both times, but not consistent.  A few times letting out my ring finger more helped.  I don't know if I changed my hand tension, hand angle or something with the fingers are not getting clear clean.

A few times I had some good shots with a grip change.  I caught that my grip was off, and when I changed back my shots went back to hitting the shelf.  The bow didn't react right on my good tear shots so it was not the best way to grip, but it helped somehow compensate.  

My second session had a lot of marginal shots.  It cleared up a little, but I was still getting some shelf rub and side tear on most shots.  Not as much of the harder hits as before.  I tried to really relax my fingers and hand a lot more, but I think I went too far letting the fingers out. I also tried more low finger pressure and less top finger.  Then mostly middle finer pressure and even tip and bottom finger pressure.  Nothing I tried that round really cleared it up for nice shots like some of the shots the first round.

At some points it seemed that pulling with a down angle more helped, but it was not consistent.  My follow through went to my arm pit more than top of my shoulder.  I don't think that is good.  

Next time out I need to stay consistent with the finger position and just try working on hand, arm and shoulder tension to see what happens there.  I think my fingers are fine the way I normally grip the string.  It works great 3 under with the same finder placement, and I can see nothing wrong with my hook in general.  

I need to pay close attention to follow through I think.  That could tell me if 3 under and spit have the same follow through and feel to the shot.  I did shot some of both yesterday.  Mostly I shot 3 under targets after shooting paper a while.  I didn't notice anything, but maybe shooting mixed blind will help feel it.

If nothing there I will try grip changes to see what works for a clue.  I should also drop the nock 1/8" to where it probably should be for spit to see if that does anything for the shelf hit, but I don't think that is the problem with hitting the shelf.

It is frustrating to be able to shoot perfectly clean shots 3 under and not be able to do it split.   I would change, but I don't like the bow noise and the 20 yd. point on just seem real odd.  If my point on was more like 30 yd. I could deal with it better I think.  I have tried to drop my anchor to compensate, but I can't find anything solid for a anchor that is lower.

One other issue I have been having is deep cracking in my middle finger first joint.  I don't know if it is the cold or what.  I didn't have this earlier this year.  I wonder if I am not getting that finger of the string on release and it is hanging up under the arrow causing lifting and a downward shot on the back of the arrow.  Maybe 3 under my index gets off the string under the arrow and my middle finger dragging doesn't have the same effect being lower than the arrow nock.

[Big Sneaky]

I have had a similar problem with tuning between 3-under and split.  Arrows would bareshaft great split but would show weak 3 under.  My problem was too much tourqe on the ring finger.  When shooting 3 under I put most of the pressure on the top finger.  When I shoot split, I hold 75% of the weight with my middle finger.

I also wonder what length bow you are shooting?  If you are shooting a short bow, you could be getting some finger pinch split, that you are not getting 3 under.  Are you shooting the bow vertical for both when you are tuning?  I'm sure it is something simple so just stay after it.

[xtrema312]

I am shooting kind of short bows for my draw, but I have had this with a 62 and 66" bow this summer so I don't think that is all of it.

I shot one split and one 3 under in consecutive shots and get this so not much I can tell with form change or bow angle.  It is very consistent with mixed shots and concentrated form shooting paper, so kind of blank bail.

Well today I tried some stuff.  I didn't see any real progress with finger pressure at all.  Then finally I tried some stuff with the grip.  Nothing there until I tried a lot of lower finger pressure to force the bottom of the bow in and top out.  Basically trying to rotate the bow top limb at the target on the shot.  Presto, bullet holes.  And I was able to repeat this over and over.

So it looks like I am pulling the bottom limb up more and causing the bottom limb to have more load and pull the back of the arrow down.  Now I just need to figure out how it works.  Is it my fingers, hand, or something in my shoulder or arm angle?  I would have though that a lower grip on the string would cause me to pull more on the bottom limb, but it seams the change in string angle grip overrides the change in sting grip height and what ever am doing split finger.  I tried to put a lot of index finger with less on middle and about none on ring finger, but couldn't get bullet holes.

[kevgsp]

I seem to require a higher nock than most on all bows I shoot. 5/8 up from square to the bottom of the nocking point, arrow under.

Had the shelf contact problem "thought" I had gone high enough, couldn't get rid of it till I went to 5/8.

[xtrema312]

Thanks for you input.  I have been to 7/8", but I do plan to try higher again to see just how high it takes.  I am at 5/8" now shooting clean 3 under and hitting shooting split.  The fact I can go 7/8" high and shoot a nock high 3 under and still hit the shelf shooting split just keeps me thinking there is a finger or hand issue I am not figuring out. I kind of feel like a really high nock point is just a band aid, but I am going to give it another try just to see what it takes.

[xtrema312]

Well I finally have it all figured out.  Simple really once you know what it is.

[kevgsp]

AND

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by kevgsp:
AND

 

I will write it up in a bit.  I just had to see if anyone was interested.

[Mike Bolin]

I am interested......???

[xtrema312]

I got to thinking that shooting thee under makes my bow louder because of limb timing changes, but I don't get that split with the shelf contact so the shelf contact must not be a limb timing issue or I would hear it.   So if the arrow is not pulling down or being shot down due to unequal limb flex then my the grip becomes my prime suspect.  

Today I worked only on grip and left everything else the same.  I made a change and tucked my lower three fingers all into my palm rather than having them loose or lightly touching the front of the riser.  It worked great.  I was able to shoot bullet hole after bullet hole with no shelf edge rub.  Bare shaft at 25 yd. were also right on.  I couldn't feel a different hand pressure, but it did clear up the problem.  

The best I can tell is either I am putting some heal into the bow I don't feel, or more likely, I am getting the lower grip area to drive into my hand on the shot and bounce off.  This then makes the bow bounce forward and rotate up just enough so that the shelf front gets above the arrow flight line and the arrow rubs it.   That is why I was able to grip the bow harder and get good shots; I was not forcing the limbs to change timing or change the arrow flight line.  I was holding the bow down level or lower on the shot.  

So now I think the difference between split and 3 under was that with 3 under the lower string grip and pulling angle was shooting the bow out more or maybe the lower limb was getting to brace first and pushing the lower part of the grip a little away from my hand and not causing the bounce and rotation.  

I still have to work on this more to see exactly how it works, but I think it is in the grip.  I just don't quite know yet why the lower grip pushes off my hand if I am not pushing on it.  Maybe a looser index and thumb grip will also solve it.  I will do more testing.

[Guss]

I've experienced the same issues with wear on the shelf. My problem was grip(torque)related also. I definetly do better with medium to high wrist grip. Glad you figured it out! Good post!
              Jr.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Guss:
I've experienced the same issues with wear on the shelf. My problem was grip(torque)related also. I definetly do better with medium to high wrist grip. Glad you figured it out! Good post!
              Jr.

Now you tell me.  

[Guss]

Sorry!!! I guess that info would have helped sooner !!!!  LOL!! Jr.

[xtrema312]

That is ok.  I kept me busy for a while.  I am still not sure it is all a grip thing.  I am still working on it to test it out completely.  Let's call it a hypothesis for now.

[xtrema312]

I finally got it worked out.  I had some good results with the grip change, but I still felt it was compensating and not the problem.  I found I had to use a high hand angle to make it consistent.  That didn't seem right.

I went back to looking at my release.  I suspected I was doing something with my fingers, but I didn't seem to be able to stop.  I got a new Pac-tab and started shooting it.  I noticed after shooting it a while that my problem was a little better.  I am also playing with a new super glove, and I noted that was helping after shooting with it a while.  After a couple nights shooting close shots working of form in the barn I switched back to a couple tabs I was shooting.  They were pulling off my finger, but my rub marks were not as bad as before.  Then after shooting a while the tabs stayed on, but the rub marks got a lot worse.  Finally I understood it.  

I realized when I changed to carbon arrows I also changed to a tab from a finger tip glove.  I used to shoot a shorter draw length, and I figured out I plucked the string some.  After lengthening my draw, this problems started.  I think the plucking was masking the release problems.  I remember having some issues with the strap type tabs not staying on all the time after the tabs broke in and got a little curl to them.  That problem just went away.  That was before fixing the draw length and pluck.  

I don't have very pronounced knuckles so the strap type tabs pull off to easy.  I subconsciously did something to keep them on.  I think it was my middle finger based on a few other clues.  I think I really drag that finger on the string a long time and probably lift the back of the arrow and let it snap down due to the pull away from back tension.  Funny how I could never feel that happening.

I did one night of very relaxed release work with the new tab shooting blank bail.  The Pac-tab is a hole in the tab style.  It stays on really well.  It didn't take long for the rub to go away.  By the second night I was shooting for quite a while at target spots short range, and I only got one light mark all night.  

Saturday I went out stumping.  I shot great and no issues.  My accuracy was really good.  Later I shot a lot at a target.  I did get a few light rub marks when I got tired and let my release got a little more tension in the hand.  

Today I have my best shooting day in a long time.  I was really on. I got my bows tuned better and shooting bullets for bare shafts.  It was great!  All my other little form changes I have been working on really came together when the release cleaned up.  I did have one rub and could tell my release was not relaxed.  After thinking about it I was able to adjust and continue to shoot clean.

Other than the tab change I also started to load up more weight on the middle finger.  The extra string pressure on that finger helped me be more aware of the finger and it's role of holding the string as well as not holding it on release.   I also found thinking about my middle finger flying out and pointing at the target helped make it happen when the release happened.  That visualization was a big help.  

I plan to do more blank bale work this week at night in the barn to keep ingraining the release, but I am really happy to have this solved and be moving forward.

[xtrema312]

Well I have been up and down on this a little.  80% load on the middle finger helps a lot, but it is hard to shoot extended that way and I found I really had to let off on the other two fingers.  So I started to experiment some.  In the end the best thing for me was to load about 50% middle, 40% ring and 10% index. The middle and ring fingers have a deep hook with the fingers pointed back and with the index finger less than 90 degree bend, but string in the crease.  That really seems to have done the trick.  In the end, I hope, it was probably my index finger causing my trouble.  Now with light pressure on that finger I get kind of a three under release, which always worked well for me.

[xtrema312]

By now you have guessed this just doesn’t go away as easy as I would like.

Ok my new problem started to be a bloody cheek from what I thought was my index finger nail for some reason scratching it.  So I switched to a lower index anchor point to try and get off that spot.  Of course the shelf hit was back even with the relaxed and very lightly loaded index finger.  

I switched back and forth with the anchor, and I notice a little difference in what felt like the pulling angle.  There is some logic in the changes to the different finger pressure could cause a difference in the angle the presser is applied to the string.  So I went back to my normal anchor.  I got my index finger wrapped better around the string to stop the face issue.  I started to lift my elbow a little bit to feel the pressure more on my middle and ring finger.  I also noted that the pressure of the bow in my hand changed a little; it felt like the pressure shifted a little more into the bone at the base of the thumb.  It worked.  No shelf hit.  That was yesterday at the end of my practice.  I shot a couple groups that way and had to head for work.  

I tried again today and with the little higher angle pull again.  I get no shelf hit.  I also got no bloody spot on my cheek.  I think it is really my string and maybe the brass nock hitting my face because my index finger is not turned into my face giving me string clearance.  

I now remember that when I was making my last form changes and this all started, I had what I thought was a too high elbow on my string side.  This was based on mirror and video work.  I didn’t have a real good line between the elbow, hand, and arrow.  I now think maybe it was not too high or at least for me it was not.

I don’t get why this works.  Some of the things I have tried, which compensated for this, almost seem to be the opposite of pulling up more on the string. Maybe it is a release thing with my fingers, or a limb timing thing.  I am not sure.  3 under would seem to pull more bottom limb like pulling up more.  The odd thing is that 3 under the bow makes more noise than split even when I now pull up.  I also played with shooting 3 under with nock set for split today.  I hit the shelf 3 under because I need more nock height as everyone says.  Shooting 3 under gets my fingers lower and even with a more relaxed ring finger I think I must pull up more bottom limb and cause limb timing to make the back of the arrow drive down.  I just don’t get why pulling up more split doesn’t do it and actually works the opposite.  I would think pulling down too much split would make the top limb load more and pull the arrow up, but it causes the arrow to drive down and hit the shelf.

I don’t know how it works, but so far it does.  This is the first time I have been able to adjust my grip and finger pressure and as long as I just pull up a little more I don’t get shelf hit.  The only other thing I can think of is vertical arrow torque on release comes into play.  I would think with pulling up I would be more likely to force the index finger into the arrow and the arrow into the shelf.  Maybe I am compensating again.