shooting feedback part 2 (video)

[Ranger B]

Well, see if I've fixed a few of my issues.  My bow arm is clearly moving right and down in the slow motion. I think this is due to the heavier bow but regardless I've got to get that under control.  Any other suggestions?
   

[moebow]

RangerB,  I think you're looking pretty good.  You seem to "bounce" a little at full draw -- you can see it in the slo-mo sequence.  Watch the arrow point end in front of the bow. It pulls back then creeps forward, then back etc.  Your release is not the same every time.  Sometimes it flips out a little other times it looks to run straight back.  Work on a totally relaxed string arm,wrist and hand.  Use consistent back tension.

You look to be shooting pretty good groups so you need to define what it is you REALLY are trying to do.

I will give you the same advice I constantly give my students.  If you are working on form, first shoot 20 sessions blind bale -- eyes closed -- FEEL THE SHOT! Video often!  Then 20 sessions on the blank bale.  Use a blank sheet of paper to cover the spots, don't try to hit anything.  The purpose of this is to bring your eyes into the shot.  Our eyes over rule our brain and we need to train our brain to make the shot(that is to make the mechanics of the shot exactly the same every time) regardless of what our eye's input is.  Video self OFTEN!  Be critical on what you see vs. what you feel.

Then and only then shoot at a spot of some sort. Ranger, you really are close and better than many and as I said above define exactly what it is you are searching for.  If as I suspect it is to REALLY improve your form follow what Rod recommended and be "religious" about it --don't cheat or try to shortcut or "peek."

You are really shooting at a pretty high level right now and are at a point where every minute detail comes at a greatly increased level of effort.

Have fun!!!!

[s_mcflurry]

I really think your bow arm is a non-issue.  Most folks worry about this needlessly, when, in fact, the arrow is already long gone before they've had a chance to affect it.  The general motion is down and left, however, since there's no more force holding it up and back because of back tension.  If it messes you up mentally then you may want to work on it...but your bow arm looks fine to me.  Your groups are evidence enough.  More important, though, your slow motion segment shows a really clean release every time.

[Ranger B]

Gentlemen thank you so much for the feedback - precisely what I was looking for.

Moebow - The bounce is due to my change in anchor. I used to use a soft tissue anchor (index finger in the corner of my mouth), but have now change to anchor with my thumb in the back of my jaw and the index finger in the corner of my mouth. I thought two would make it more solid. It also slows me down as I set it.  I feel like I'm having to draw past anchor to get the thumb set in the back of my jaw. Do you think that is an issue?  Or are you seeing something that I'm not and I'm still bouncing even after I've locked my anchor in?

What am I trying to do?
Well, I want to shot tournaments and shoot to the best of my ability.  I am going up to Lancaster Archery the first week of August to shoot some bows and make a purchase.  Right now I plan to shoot the Tradtech Titan and Pinnacle II.  I will shoot the LB and REC limbs but I think I'll end up with the pinnacle primarily due to the longer riser thus a 64" bow.  I'm leaning towards longbow vs. recurve.  I'm open to suggestions on this as well.  Next year I'll have a lot of time to shoot and have an indoor facility for the winter so I plan to practice a lot and try to refine my form.

Any other bows I should shoot?  I've looked at the DAS Daala but they don't carry it at LAS so I won't be able to shoot it.  It is also a longer riser.  

I plan to shoot the carbon limbs on all bows.  Shoot me a list of bows to shoot if you have time.

[s_mcflurry]

Jim, you're going through the same thing I'm working on now: getting to anchor without having to first draw past it first.  What I found works best for me is to draw back in what's almost like a curved path.  At predraw my arrow is pointing off target.  I begin drawing back in a slightly curved path so that I my thumb can settle right behind my jaw.  I find that it helps keep my wrist and draw elbow in the right positions throughout the process and I can get into my back easily.  To my eye, the moment before release, your arrow point looks stable to me.  What moebow might be seeing as bouncing (and what I'm recognizing because I'm going through it) is you settling into your anchor.

Oh, also, break your wrist in the other direction when at predraw.  Fill a pail with rocks and hold it at your side with your string fingers.  What you should see is that your wrist naturally breaks away from your body.  Compare that to your video, where it breaks in towards your face.

[moebow]

Ranger,  I'd say that the " I'm having to draw past anchor to get the thumb set in the back of my jaw" says that you have to release back tension to allow your string hand to move forward into position.  The accepted theory says basically that once you release any back tension (allow your hand to move forward), you really cannot get it back (read this as a contributor to consistency problems).  If you can learn to get that anchor position during the rearward draw it will become easier and more consistent  to keep your back tension moving in the correct direction.  Am I splitting hairs?  Yes, but you asked.


To shoot tournaments successfully and consistently, requires the most rock solid form you can muster.  To answer your question about bows, (and I'll probably get a LOT of grief on this statement) bows are bows.  If your form is proper and solid, the bow you shoot will be largely personal preference.  With that said, target style recurves lend themselves to more "adjust ability" than "off the shelf" long bows or a hunting style bow.  I'm a longbow shooter by preference.  But I still say that form trumps the equipment.  If you have really good form you can shoot anything with a good degree of competency.  If your form is other than "really good" you may have become very good with one style of bow but find that you don't like changing to another style of bow.

The bows you've listed are good choices.  When you are at LAS you may even want to try a full up target bow like the Hoyt, Win & Win etc.  Not necessarily recommending them but shoot them for comparison.  Bows like vehicles or anything else will have trade offs.  Some will be better for hitting 90 meter FITA targets but may have distinct drawbacks when slogging through a 3D course.  Do you want a Corvette or a Kenworth -- kind of depends on what you want to do.

Do pay close attention to the difference in feel between recurve and long bow limbs. Shoot them a couple of times with your eyes closed if able.  You will feel a difference during the draw I think.

It's a long but satisfyingly enjoyable journey you are working on.

[moebow]

s_mcflurry,  Your last post came in while I was typing my last one.  YES!!! "Rotational draw to anchor" is the way I tell my students.  Most start with the arrow on target and have to draw straight back which complicates the back tension discussion.  A discussion I generally avoid here as it is difficult to explain in words, much easier to show.

And Yes, you are right and I probably said it poorly.  What I described as "bouncing" is Ranger trying to adjust to anchor.

[Ranger B]

Okay, I do the line up and pull straight back. I'm having trouble (as moebow predicted) visualizing the rotational draw. Any way to describe it or some video online?

[s_mcflurry]

Here's a good video:
         

Couple of things to notice (his last shot shows these the best, ~19 seconds)...
1) His draw wrist is in a natural, relaxed position.  For most people, the wrist will bend inward slightly or the back of the hand will be in line with the forearm.
2) At the predraw position, his arrow is off target and doesn't come on target until he reaches anchor.  To achieve this, his draw hand at predraw is about an inch or two out of alignment (so that the arrow points to the left of the target a bit).  As he engages his back and draws to anchor, he rotates his shoulders into alignment.  Notice that the Adidas logo on the back of his shirt disappears.  This is what the current US Olympic coach calls 'angular rotation'.

This video is geared towards Olympic/FITA style shooting but elements can be drawn from it and adapted for barebow shooting (string/face walking, gap shooting, etc.) or even traditional instinctive shooting.  I have a slightly open stance, I also do a slight rotation of the shoulders, as well as an adapted FITA style drawing for instinctive shooting.  The major differences between FITA and traditional for me are the canted bow and the higher anchor.  It feels good to me and I've been seeing good results.

[moebow]

Good Morning all,  Had to give it up last night and go to bed.

s_miflurry's post of the video is a good start for seeing what the "rotational draw" looks like.  What you are seeing here is an example of the BEST (Biomechanically Efficient Shooting Technique)system.  Also known as the NTS (National Training System).

Notice that the shooter, upon reaching fulldraw RAISES his string hand to anchor -- he does not allow it to move forward.

And YES it is a target shooting approach to shooting the bow.  I will say this though,  If you learn to shoot this way and learn how your body and back muscles work to properly shoot a bow; then the system can be adapted to what we refer to as traditional style shooting.  If you are a musician you didn't learn to play the piano by starting with boogie woogie or classical music like Bach.  You learned the scales and how your fingers should be placed for each key.  Only after learning the scales did you proceed to simple tunes then more advanced stuff.

Same is true in archery.  Learn the proper steps first then once you have the basic form then you can proceed to specialize in the type of shooting you want to do.  Proper form trumps equipment every time!!!!  With this good form it won't matter what you are shooting compound, FITA style target, hunting bow, flight bow, etc.

RangerB,  What s_mcflurry and I are really talking about is best found in Kisic Lee's book "Total Archery -- Inside the Archer"  It is the best definition of the BEST system available.  It is pricey (about $50) but if you want explanation and pictures, it can't be beat!

[Ranger B]

I'll pick it up!  Thanks so much for your help.  I plan to shoot blind bale and blank bale for a week or so and then I'll post another video for your critique.

[moebow]

Good for you!!  I would suggest blind bale THEN blank bale.  Do not mix them together initially!!

[s_mcflurry]

Just a warning:  "Inside the Archer" is dense with material and very heady.  Be prepared to have your mind warped...hopefully in a good way.  Approach the book as an option to shoot rather than the way (as many have done) and I think you'll survive.  :D

[BobCo 1965]

Inside the Archer has helped me tremendously. I do have to reread it often though to get a full grasp. You do have to get a little used to Coach Lee's writting. His writting has improved over the years though. Before buying his complete target archery book (this is his 2nd in a sequence of 3), you may want to check out his website. There is a section devoted to Angular Movement.

[moebow]

archery, shooting a hill bow using the BEST system
URL:http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1
Hey folks,  After all the discussion about this, I went to the range this morning and did a little shooting.  I certainly don't claim that my form is perfect -- far from it!  I see archery as a journey not a destination as they say. There is much to work on with my form but I try to demonstrate some of the things we've been talking about.

I spent the rest of the day getting registered on youtube and trying to get the video loaded there.   I spent most of this evening trying to figure out how to link the video to this web site.  I hope the above address works but will only know after I post this and test it for myself.

I'm standing by for questions, comments and criticisms.

[moebow]

Ranger B,  My apologies for the www. link,  I have no clue how to do the seamless link that you did in your first post.  Maybe, someday, I'll figure that out.    

[Ranger B]

Moe\\'s video

[Ranger B]

Moebow - great video. Thanks for doing that.  I had a rough session today. I think I was overdoing the rotation to draw and it was throwing me off. I cut it short because I began to fall apart.  Now that I've seen your video I think I can adjust more.  My bow arm certainly doesn't go left. It goes right just a little which tells me that my back tension is probably a bit weak and I'm a little overbowed.

[moebow]

Ranger, that is cool -- sure wish I knew how you do that, as you can see, I'm old and slow to learn.  

[Ranger B]

When responding to a thread you have to click on "Full Reply Form"
You'll get several options below.  One is URL. Click on that and paste the link in that window. So I opened your video and copied the link.  www.....
Then I came back here and clicked on Full Reply Form and clicked URL. I pasted the link in that block and hit okay. Then another window pops up for you to name it. You can name it anything you want. I typed Moe's video.  Then Add Reply and you're done.      

It's no different if you are starting a thread but you don't have to click Full Reply Form when you start one. It's already a full form.

You're helping me with form...the least I can do it tell you how to post a video