Blind bale? How?

[trad_in_cali]

hello there,
I bought Masters of BareBow III and have been reading the posts here. I want to start the program, but a bit unclear on the exact steps.
1) I start at 5 yards, eyes closed. Shoot an 40-50 shots concentrating on form. Making sure all feels aligned. Nothing else.
2) Continue so for how long?
3)When do I start shooting at 5yds and make sure all executions are 'right'?
If they are not, I go back to the blind bale, right?
4) As they are right for 60 shots, I pull back 3-5 yds. restart.

Any tips? I wish I could take Rod class, but I'm on West Coast, and could not make the 1 weekend he was in Oregon darn (still very far from me, anyway).

[moebow]

1.& 2.  Blind bale,  start at 5-6 feet.  Just far enough that the arrow clears the bow.  Rod will say "do this for 20 sessions concentrating on the feel".
3. After the above, you are correct, the shot that is not executed correctly sends you back to the blind bale -- you have to be honest with yourself.  If the shot is not going to be correct, let down and start over.

Best tip I could give you is find a coach to check you out every once in a while.  There must be some resource there in SF.  Lacking that, video yourself often and compare to MBB3.

[moebow]

Trad_in_cali,  I might also suggest that you check out the "shooting form" thread that is on page two of this (the shooter's forum)about two thirds of the way down the page.  There are three videos that I put up a while ago but the one that is about shooting a hill bow is completely "blind bale", it might give you some ideas.

[trad_in_cali]

Thanks Moebow. i subscribed to your YouTube channel, I'm watching all the vids.

[moebow]

Hope they will give you some good ideas.

[Wapiti Bowman]

The whole theory behind 'blind bale' practice is based on the generally accepted fact that the human mind can only really focus on one thing at a time. Therefore, Once you step up to that target, whether it's a paper spot, 3-D animal, or wild game, all your focus has to be on your intended impact point. You cannot divide your attention by running through your shot sequence, or thinking about your grip, anchor point, or back tension. Your form has to be imprinted on your muscle memory so that it happens without giving it a thought. That's what 'blind bale' practice is meant to do. Therefore, before you can practice on the blind bale, you have to know what each aspect of your form should feel like so that you can "Focus" on each aspect in turn while shooting 5 or 6 arrows. The best way I know of to get that basic 'good form' is by going to a good coach. While the modern shooting DVDs can be helpful, I don't think they can replace a one on one with a coach.  Assuming you've been coached so that you know what each aspect of good form feels like, now you use the 'blind bale' practice to imprint them into your muscle memory.For example, your bow hand must be placed on the bow exactly the same with every shot, and it must be absolutely relaxed throughout the shot. Most shooters I've watched will tighten their grip with release, some ever so slightly, some go white knuckles. So, with your bow hand placement set, you set your hook, and draw with eyes open to be sure you're pointed at the bale, then close your eyes and focus all of your attention on your bow hand. You don't think about your anchor point, nor your back tension, nor your release. You just feel your bow hand and make sure there is absolutely no tension in it at all. When you're sure there's no tension there, you can let the release happen, but your focus must remain on your bow hand to insure that you don't flex any muscle in it in even the slightest way.  I think you'll find that this will take some practice before you'll begin to be able to keep all the tension out of your hand throughout the release. Once you're satisfied that you're keeping all the tension out of your bow hand, you can move on to the next aspect of your form, perhaps anchor point, or......?? I would recommend that you shoot no more than 5 or 6 arrows at a time, before retrieving them. As you can see, to do the blind bale practice effectively, you have to know what constitutes "good form" so that you're imprinting the best form that fits your body structure. If you have any Q about anything I've mentioned, don't hesitate to email me or send a private msg. As you can see, a description of this type can get very lengthy. BTW, I was very fortunate to have stumbled onto a week long archery academy early on in my shooting career, and had intense training by some of the finest shooters and coaches in the USA at the time, several of whom were Olympic medalists, and/or Olympic coaches.

Good Luck!

[AllenR]

There are two kinds of bale work, blind bale and blank bale.  The only difference is whether your eyes are open or not.  Both can be useful, but it's probably better to open your eyes since that't how you will be shooting most of your arrows when it counts (hopefully    )

Wapiti Bowman posted a lot of excellent information.  Read and understand his post and take him up on his invitation to PM questions.

One of the key things about bale work that you should understand is that the bale is there just to catch arrows.  You don't want to think about where the arrows land.  You only want to work on what goes on in your mind.  One of the reasons for only shooting a few arrows at a time is that if you shoot more than a few, you will start thinking about where they land because you don't want to damage them.  Rod's coach, Len Cardinale, said that the only reason to use arrows at all is that shooting without them would quickly destroy our bows.  It's not about the bale, so get closer than 5 yards, especially if you are doing it with your eyes closed.

Another key is concentration.  Concentration is what your mind sees, not what your eyes see.  On each bale shot, concentrate on only one part of your form.  Try to shoot a good shot otherwise, but see that one part in your mind from the beginning of the shot to the end.  

When do you start shooting at a target?  That's impossible to judge long distance.  Without a coach that understands the bale, it's probably just trial & error.  IMHO you should give the bale at least six weeks before you start on a target.  However, like most things, you get out of it what you put into it.  When you decide that you are going to a target, start with a really big target, at least 24" and no more than 3 yards.  You want an absolute certainty in your mind that you can hit that 24" bullseye.  

This is the most critical point of the whole blank bale system.  If you shoot a shot that isn't exactly how you learned it on the bale, immediately quit shooting and go back to the bale the next practice session.  This takes a lot of self discipline, but if you don't do it, IMO, you are wasting your time on the bale.  Follow this same rule every time you step back.

As others posted above, be sure that you understand what form you want to learn.  The bale is a powerful tool.  If you learn something that is wrong, it takes a lot of effort to un-learn it.  However, the bale is a good place to experiment with different things.

This system is not quick or easy, but if you follow it, you will end up a very good archer.

Allen

[njloco]

This was a reply I posted on Terry's Form a clock, hope this helps, Trad_in_cali.

Well guys and gales this just clicked for me on Saturday. As they say it's a little hard to put into words but here goes, I'm not new to Trad. but in many ways I am. I started shooting many years ago when I was very young and stopped when I was in my early twenties. Then in my late forties ended up going hunting and switched to a wheeler. decided to come back to Trad. a couple of years ago which would make it my late fifties. Had a few set backs ( bypass surgery ) but now I'm good to go. Been reading posts on here and watching a DVD, but couldn't quite figure it all out. Then I saw Terry's clock, and said to myself " oh that's what I was doing all those years ago, back in the 50's through the early 70's. It put my archery shooting into perspective.

Put this together with trying to demonstrate how to shoot a Trad. bow to a friend, and telling him he should really try shooting at a blank bale, and then showing it to him, but doing it myself for the first, that is when it all started to click. I went home and was a little tired, so I did some chores around the house and then relaxed a little. It was getting late and I figured I would go out and shoot a little more, I drew the first arrow back and that is when I realized I am shooting like I did when I was younger, everything that the experienced guys try and explain to the new people to Trad. came together. I didn't have to concentrate on my form because my brain and body already knew what I was asking of them, all I had to do was watch the spot I wanted to hit and it happened. All those years ago I was a good shooter but I knew nothing about the actual mechanics until now.

All I could say is Thank you all, and I will try my best to pass it on.

P.S. I would like to add, when I shoot, other experienced Trad. shooters that know I am just coming back to the sport have commented that my form is very good.I think this might be why it didn't take very long on the blank bale to get results.

[Wapiti Bowman]

Allen said:  

There are two kinds of bale work, blind bale and blank bale. The only difference is whether your eyes are open or not. Both can be useful, but it's probably better to open your eyes since that's how you will be shooting most of your arrows when it counts (hopefully [Smile] )

Personally, I've found that when I try to leave my eyes open during 'blank bale' exercise, I cannot focus entirely upon the aspect of form upon which I am working. I find myself picking out a spot at which to shoot, or trying to see how close I can place my arrows. Of course, that's a personal problem. If you can shut your mind to all else except that single aspect of form, while receiving input from your eyes, then eyes open will be just as beneficial as eyes closed. I have found that even with my eyes closed, I have to shift position every couple of shots as my body will naturally come to it's most comfortable position, and I'll damage arrows as they stack on top of each other.

Unfortunately, it seems that most Americans require instant gratification, which, in the case of archery, means immediate success at hitting the bullseye.  However, without first learning how to execute a proper shot, the new archer is doomed to instant failure, which leads to frustration, which leads to quitting by all but the most dedicated. In Asia, I'm told that archers being trained by qualified coaches don't even get their hands on a bow for the first six months of their training. Try that in our country!

Can you learn to shoot without going through the often times tedious work of blind/blank bale work? Sure you can, if you have the desire, dedication, and motivation to improve.  Thousands have done it before you. I did it as a youth some 60 years ago. But you do it by trial and error, slowly figuring out what works and what doesn't. Believe me, it's a whole lot faster following the steps that have been outlined in this forum, with finding a good coach being the first item of priority, IMHO.

BTW, I still begin every shooting session with some blind/blank bale work as my warm up.

Enjoy!

[trad_in_cali]

Thank you for all the help, I've been mixing blind bale to warm up and to close my sessions with regular distances shooting. It's been hard to shoot with eyes closed because the bail is 5.5' tall and I'm 6'2", and if I'm not careful at  3-5 yards I overshoot it, so I can never relax completely.
My New Year proposition is to go through 6 weeks of blind bale and slowly move back. I feel at a great point in my shooting, and want to push it forward.
I've seen the effects of the bale and the FormMaster. As soon as my back tension loosens, so do the groups. And I've learned to stop when my back is feeling tired and can't hold properly.
Slowly.
Thank you,
Marco

[Yohon]

"This is the most critical point of the whole blank bale system. If you shoot a shot that isn't exactly how you learned it on the bale, immediately quit shooting and go back to the bale the next practice session. This takes A LOT of SELF DISCIPLINE, but if you don't do it, IMO, you are wasting your time on the bale. Follow this same rule every time you step back."

Very well said Allen    that is the key, the secret so to speak of this whole bale stuff. No doubt it works like it supposed to but you HAVE to be honest and disciplined to get it to work. I cant tell you how many I have seen get their bale shot polished and then want to get to a target sooo bad that they short step THE most important part. Great post AllenR!!!

[trad_in_cali]

So when I will do this exclusively, I start from , say, my grip, until it feels right, then move to other parts, like anchor, back tension, head position, elbow rotation, breathing. Take apart the shot and rebuild its pieces. Right?
Marco

[jfelkins]

Great thread! Tnx for all the info!

[trad_in_cali]

I did soem research and found 2 videos hosted by Len Cardinale (who developed the blind bale technique). I'd take a Rod Jenkins class, but he rarely if ever comes to the West Coast. Anyone know if these videos are to the point or any other source of info on the topic?
They are: MENTAL KEYS THAT UNBLOCK TARGET PANIC 1 and 2
These seem more about that, but the list of topics of #2 is: The second video covers aiming, execution, the bridge from the bale to the target, anchors, and the 7 steps to the shot
Thanks!

[Tav]

I have one thing to add....make sure you check to see if your arrow is pointed at the bag for your first shot.  I shot a nice hole through my favorite hunting coat and favorite fishing rain jacket. The shot felt great though.  The bad thing is my buddy was behind me and never said a thing.  A few days earlier I shot a hole in my daughter's hunting pack.  I'm a slow learner.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by trad_in_cali:
So when I will do this exclusively, I start from , say, my grip, until it feels right, then move to other parts, like anchor, back tension, head position, elbow rotation, breathing. Take apart the shot and rebuild its pieces. Right?
Marco

Len told me that I should work on each part of my form during each practice session.  He went on to explain that you should pick out what needs the most work and shoot more arrows concentrating on that alone.  

For example, if your bow hand is your weakest link.  Shoot 20 arrows concentrating on how you set it and what you get for it.  Then shoot 5 to 10 arrows concentrating on each the other form parts, one at a time.

Always try to shoot a good shot, but on the bale, concentrate on one thing at a time.

Allen

[trad_in_cali]

So I went through my first week of it. What I noticed is that I'm becoming much more aware of nuances in my form, like what my fingers in my bow hand are are doing and whether they are relaxed, and the middle of my back is MUCH more tired, which means I'm using those muscles much more, finally...
One question, since I don't see my string (shooting with eyes closed), I realized that I'm not turning my head enough, and the string is scraping my nose and upper lip. So I'm going to keep my eyes open to ensure alignment and that my anchoring point is aligned with the middle of my eye. Any pointers on that? Thanks!

[moebow]

I too end up with a little cut on my upper lip or the side of my nose when doing this.  Not all the time but enough that no one can say that there's no blood on my bows.   :D   When that happens to me, (besides being messy) I keep my eyes closed and really concentrate on my head turn position.  It usually doesn't take long to get my head back around toward the target where there is clearance.

Band aid on the nose as I write this.  New bow with a different feel.