effect of release on flight

[sffar]

If an arrow gets released mechanically and flies/hits perfectly, then what happens to that same arrow when released from the fingers? Is the dynamic spine increased or decreased?
And, if I have arrows that are a bit too stiff or too flexible, is there anything that can be done in the release to adjust for those conditions?
Thanks
Sam,

[Rattus58]

Ok... for one thing, I'm not expert... but I have had issues... and I am observant...

fingers will roll the string. For me that moves the tail of the arrow away from the riser at release (right handed shooter). This has caused me no end of problems and is partly due in my case to an anchor at the corner of my mouth.

Once I was taught to have a more solid anchor, that minimized much of the issues which tended to move my arrows to right. A solid anchor for me improved this dramatically.

My personal OPINION is that fingers versus a release will "weaken" the perception of arrow flight. On my lesser poundage bows, being able to drop my third finger from the string at release with most all of the weight on my middle finger are my best shots.... but unfortunately doesn't work on all of my bows.

I'm sure there are more "learned" folks here who can give you better advise, but one thing that will cure this also is making sure that you Pull Back from your sting when you release. This will assuredly improve your release which when you do this just let your fingers make the shot without thinking about it will improve your shooting with fingers I'm willing to bet for certain.

Much aloha...  

[McDave]

Tests with a chronograph will show that a finger release results in a slower arrow than a mechanical release, for a given draw length.  I don't know the technicalities of why this would be the case, but I suppose it has something to do with the string rolling off the fingers, so the full force of the bow is probably not exerted on the arrow until fractionally later than with a mechanical release.

Since the arrow has a slower speed, it would act like a stiffer arrow.

However that may be, my advice is to work on developing the cleanest release you can, without regard to the effect on your current batch of arrows.  They will be lost or broken soon, and you can adjust your next batch of arrows to suit your spine requirements, but your release will be with you always.

[sffar]

Thanks Rattus58 and McDave.
Both explanations make sense to me. A slower arrow from a finger release requires a stiffer spine and a finger release imparts initial "wobble" maybe requiring a slightly stiffer arrow to compensate for. I have found when I play around with my release, focusing on making it super clean, or stretching out a little further and adding speed, an arrow that seemed too stiff can fly well. It is a good thing to know when my release is working I'm rewarded with good flight, and so I get trained to focus on a good release. At the same time, I would like to know my arrows fall in the middle of the performance envelope. Sometimes I wonder, if I was really good at releasing and understood precisely what is happening upon release, whether I could learn to adapt a bit and release "as needed" the way someone playing an instrument might pluck a note loudly or softly. The initial question amounted to "is it me or is it my arrow," and it's true I'll lose them or break them soon enough, though that's especially true if I'm not releasing them well!!

[Wapiti Bowman]

Since the arrow has a slower speed, it would act like a stiffer arrow.

If that is the case, I would think you could add some wt up front to weaken the spine a bit and compensate for what is happening?  Just a thought?    

It certainly doesn't cost a lot to change out the points?

[sffar]

True, the points can be changed, but sometimes the available weights aren't just right, the arrow's solidly glued up, or the point you're already using is the heaviest available for the diameter, etc. But if it's me and not the spine, then one day one weight will shoot great and another day a different one and I'll have to carry three points for each arrow (which I sometimes do now)!

[atatarpm]

If you are still looking at this; the arrows you shoot of your fingers as far as spine goes will perform just as well off of a release. the direction of the archers paradox changes. Fingers give you a side to side paradox, and a release gives you a up and down paradox.
  Arrow speed increases with a release. How ever you can improve your firnger release to within 8 to 10 fps. of a release with practice.

[sffar]

I didn't realize the direction of paradox changed with a release–just figured there would be more force creating paradox, but with less sideways motion imparted by the fingers. At any rate, I'm thinking my arrows need to be spined a little lower than what's optimal (mechanical) to fly well when I release with fingers.

[atatarpm]

I did not realize it eather untill i started to try to shoot wiyh fingers.
I also found that going by the charts is not aways a good idea. While it is a good place to start the bow that i shoot made a complete fool of those charts.
Something else to keep in mind is the bows abilty to cast. My 53#er can out cast anything up to 68#'s so you need to keep that in mind also.
I found that out with a chronograph.

[atatarpm]

Are you triing to from release to fingers or the other way? There are somethings I may be able to help with.  
I shoot bothways because I have authur am triing as hard as I can to shoot fingers.
A lot of this stuff I have learn the hard way.

[jhansen]

In compound shooting you tune the bow to the arrow.  In traditional shooting you tune the arrow to the bow.  So there's really nothing you can do with a finger release to compensate for an overly stiff or weak arrow.  The key is to make the same release every time.  Your hand from wrist to middle knuckles should be flat and held in line with your forearm.  Fingers should be bent at the second knuckle to form a hook to engage the string.  The draw should be straight back with the back muscles taking over from the drawing arm as full draw is reached.  You must come to a firm and consistent anchor.  The release itself is then easy.  You stop holding the string and it slips away.  Do it the same every time and your release problems are solved.

John

[sffar]

I'm not going from a release to fingers, or vice vera. Never used a release. Really, more than anything, I'm trying to figure out from the spine calculator, where I believe a release is used for outcomes, whether I need arrows spined consistently as recommended, or less or more. Also just trying to understand what happens when the arrow gets released. I'm learning the hard way, too, though Trad Gang's a huge help!
John, thanks for the description of a good release, I did many searches looking for just such a description! I started at first holding the string at the second joint from the tip (very deep), though lately I've been holding the string closer to the first joint from the tip. Otherwise, I've been trying to hold to what you say about a consistent method, using back muscles, hand not curled.
Probably my worst habit has been using my ring finger too much so's the string gets plucked with it and the bow gets loud and the shot is poor.
Thing is, I'm often not sure whether my arrows are off a bit, or whether it's my form/release. Being a beginner, my form is not as fixed as I'd like. Just yesterday I changed my anchor. I am much more consistent than I was when I started, though.

[atatarpm]

Go with the lesser.

[jhansen]

Spine charts are usually set up for compound bows.  They make a good starting point but there other factors that come into play as well.  How near the arrow shelf is cut to the centerline of the bow makes a big difference.  Generally speaking, the closer to center the shelf is cut, the more tolerant of spine variations the bow will be.  The least tolerant bow I ever owned was a classic English longbow.  The grip area was round and I shot the arrow off my knuckle.  That bow would tell you in a heartbeat if the spine of the arrow was off.  The reason was that the arrow had to "bend" (Archers Paradox) around the riser in order to fly toward the target.  The most tolerant was a recurve that had its shelf cut just past center so that the arrow was very near the centerline of the bow.

Recurves usually need a stiffer arrow than longbows of equal draw weight.  I say usually because the newer R/D longbows have really closed the gap in performance with recurves.

Arrow material makes a big difference as well.  Of the three major materials from which arrows are made, wood, aluminum, and carbon, carbon wins hands down.  Wood comes second in my mind but I'm sure others would disagree.  I don't even remember when I bought my last aluminum shaft.

Changing subjects slightly, I place the string in the finger joint closest to my fingertips.  The pressure of the string on my fingers during the draw tends to straighten the middle knuckles somewhat.  I also try to pull evenly with all three fingers.  Cupping the hand tends to happen when your muscles are fatiqued.  That's time to take a break.

John

[sffar]

Thanks for the advice. I would also tend to put together an arrow that's spined a little lower than what's perfect for a mechanical release to adjust for a finger release. But, I read the instructions for the latest Stu's calculator yesterday, and he states a stiffer arrow is required to compensate for the effects of a finger release. The idea being that the increased lateral movement imparted to the arrow requires a stiffer spine to fly true than a shooting machine or release would need. This is counter intuitive to me. But, I'll have to pay attention to this while shooting. If I'm shooting a group, then pluck the string on the last shot, that shot should land to the right (as I shoot lefty). Understanding this would be helpful in analyzing shots.