Gap vs. Point of Aim-definition?

[Doug Treat]

I have heard that "Gap" is the distance that you see between the arrow tip and the target point "at the arrow".  Point-of-aim, on the other hand, is the distance that you see between the arrow tip and the point on the target that you want to hit "at the target".  It seems that most folks here use these two terms interchangably, but for me, they are two very different ways to aim.  Both methods are a "split vision" (as Howard Hill described it) system, but when I shoot gap, I'm concentrating more on the arrow tip and the distance AT THE ARROW.  With POA I concentrate more on the spot that I want to hit and put my arrow point on a spot below the intended impact point AT THE TARGET.  At 20 yds. my "gap" is about 1" and my "point of aim" is 20".  Is this an accurate description of these 2 methods of aiming?

[moebow]

Doug you have it backwards.  In "Point of aim" you concentrate on the arrow tip and a physical spot that will allow the arrow to hit the bull.  Good POA-ers will concentrate on that set up to the exclusion of the target.  If that physical point is placed correctly the arrow will hit the target.

In Gap-ing you concentrate on the target to be hit and perceive the arrow point pointing a given distance below (or above) the bull.

Many on these forums do tend to use them interchangeably  but this is largely a lazy way of talking about it.  POA shooters on a flat target reange will actually put a flag or something like a tenis ball on the ground at a predetermined point and use that.  An old cheat was to try to move their marker without them knowing it.  Actually when you "shoot gap" as you say, you are really using a POA aiming method.  True gap aiming is what  leads to various descriptions of "instinctive" or "split vision" styles of aiming.

To be sure, the gap and POA methods really use the SAME distance above or below the target, it is just a difference in concentration.

[McDave]

I think you've hit on the important difference between the two, which is where your eye is focused when you aim the shot.

However, I've always heard it the opposite of what you describe.  For gap, you focus on the spot you want to hit, with your arrow out-of-focus in your peripheral vision.  For point of aim, you focus on the arrow tip, and place that arrow tip on a spot you select such that the arrow will hit your target.

I think most people who shoot point-of-aim don't measure a gap, but instead select a point to place their arrow tip on, which would be something other than the spot you want to hit except for your point-on distance.  For example, they might know that if they place their arrow tip at the bottom of the 3 ring, it will hit the center of the target at 30 yards, or some such.

For that reason, I've always viewed gap as more of a hunting method, and point of aim as more of a target method.

[McDave]

Looks like you pressed the "send" button first, Arne!

[moebow]

He,he, he,  Great minds McDave, great minds.  

[Doug Treat]

I don't think I expressed my point very well.  I was not trying to make a point about where your vision is focused but where your concentration is focused.  In gap, I concentrate on the gap between my arrow point and the target (1" @ 20 yds.)AT THE ARROW.  In POA, I concentrate on the distance (20" @ 20 yds.) between my arrow point and the target AT THE TARGET.  I've read some posters on here stating that they have a "20 inch Gap".  I don't believe that it is possible to have a 20" gap but you can have a 20" POA.  Is that any clearer?

[Doug Treat]

The reason why this is important to me is that I have found (quite accidentally) that I have the same POA from 10 to 25 yds. because of the way the target looks as I get farther away and I raise my bow to put the point on the same spot.  I just did a test the other day and put a marker right below my target.  Starting at 10 yds, I put the point of my arrow on the marker and shot.  I then backed up to 15 yds. and shot again, using the same marker.  Then, I took a shot at 20 yds. and then at 25 yds. using the same marker.  All 4 of my arrows were in a 3" group about 20" above the marker.  This might be very useful in a hunting situation because if I am less than 25 yds, I don't have to judge distance.  I simply need to know where 20" is below my intended point of impact on the animal that I am shooting.

[Doug Treat]

Here's an example.  I have found that, on an elk, the knees should put my arrow point about 20" below where I want to hit, whether that elk is standing at 10 yds. or 25 yds.
 

[Doug Treat]

So I simply put the point of the arrow on the crosshair in the above picture and let fly.  I don't think this will work with all setups but with mine: heavy, slow, long arrows, POA seems to be very consistant.  When I shoot gap, however, I have to judge distance and then apply the right gap: 10 yds.=2", 15 yds.=1.5", 20 yds.=1", 25 yds.=1/2", etc.

[Doug Treat]

I have not yet hunted using this aiming system but am excited to try it this year.  If you take the picture above (let's say that is the view of the elk at 10 yds.) and shrink it to simulate a 25 yd. shot, you would notice that your GAP (YOUR VIEW of the distance between the knees and the point of impact)would change but your POA (the actual distance between the knees and the point of impact) would stay the same.

[moebow]

Doug,  I have said many times in other threads that what works for you WILL work for you -- NO QUESTION.

What McDave and I gave you are the commonly accepted concepts of Point of aim and gap aiming systems.  YES, both need to have the distance as a known factor.  Gap, with practice, turns into what is called instinctive or intuitive shooting where the distance becomes less important.

Your example of the elk above is what I would define as a gap system but for it to work at 10 to 25 yards, it seems that you would need a VERY fast bow.  My "gaps for those distances are 1.5' (18 inches) at 10 yards,2.5' (30 inches) at 20 yards and 3' (36 inches) at 25 yards.  So your theory would not work for me BUT we are all different and perceive things differently.

I, many times here, have seen those that say they use 1" or 2" gaps, but have never met anyone that could explain what they are seeing or what they mean by "at the arrow".  I also struggle with the difference you imply by saying that "where your vision is focused but where your concentration is focused".  In the shooting sports, what's the difference???? One concentrates on what they are visually focused on.

I am in no way disputing what you are saying works for you, I'm just having difficulty understanding your system.  And, as I say if it works GREAT!!! Go poke that elk and have fun!!!

[Doug Treat]

moebow, I'm confused.  The numbers you listed give you a larger gap and POA as you get farther from the target.  The gap should get smaller as you move farther from the target.

[moebow]

Doug,  Think of a straight line from your eye to the target.  The arrow will travel above this line in an arc all the way to the target, only getting back down at the target.  When the line of sight and the position of the arrow are at the same place (at the target), that is called the "point on distance" (POD).  For me and the numbers I gave earlier, the POD is 55 yards.  If the chart I put in below shows up (computer challenged -- often),  You can see that the height of the arrow above the line of sight is at it's greatest approximately at half range.  For my numbers that occurs a about 30 yards, so my gap is greatest at that range.  Then as you shoot at 40 or 50 yards the gap begins to reduce  until you get to POD where it is zero again.

The distance the arrow is above the line of sight in its trip to a target at point on range is exactly the amount of the visual gap required at any given range out to the POD that is needed to hit the target at that given range.

Again, If the little diagram came through, Look at the arrow line above the line of sight at any distance.  Transposing that distance above the line of sight is what produces the bottom arc and is representative of the gap required at that range.


   

I do not know who drew this diagram (I did not, but wish to thank that person!) but it is exactly correct in what happens to the arrow and how you determine the gap required.

Since the arrow MUST fly in an arc, that is why I was/am puzzled that you seem to have found a way to use the same gap (elk picture) for your distances from 10 to 25 yards.

Again, I emphasize that if you have found a system that works reliably for you, do not get too wrapped up in the details.  Just do what you do.  Remember that when the centipede was asked what leg he started walking with, he could never walk again.  

Arne

PS.  If the diagram doesn't come through on this post, please PM me with your email address and I will email it to you.  As I say this computer stuff sometimes leaves me in the dust.

[moebow]

Doug,  

PPS.  Email sent with diagram.  Guess I don't know how to get an image off my computer and into the thread.  I can do pictures bu apparently saved the diagram in another form.

[Doug Treat]

Thanks moebow, for sending me that image.  In your above post, you said that it was puzzling how I got the same gap from 10-25.  Actually, my GAP changes at different yardages, but my POA stays the same until 25 yds., At 30 yds. my POA is about 12" and 35 yds. is my Point On Distance.

[JohnHV]

Doug,

I recently went through a shooting clinic with Byron Ferguson and your method of aiming is exactly what Byron said he uses. I believe he describes this well in his books.  Focus on what you want to hit but "perceive" the arrow point in your peripheral vision pointing at an appropriate point below the intended target.  That point on the target is the same regardless of distance until you get to your "point-on" distance.  After that the arrow will be above the intended target.  So for instance your point is on the knee of the deer target whether you are at 10 yards or 25 yards.  Because you are farther from the target the "gap" naturally gets smaller.

I never really understood this till I tried it after Byron's seminar and it works well for me.  My shooting has definitely improved (from bad to mediocre!). Byrons said that this is what he understood to be Hill's "split vision" style of aiming.

Whatever you call it it seems to work for me.

[Doug Treat]

Let me see if this makes more sense in a set of pictures.  This is a picture of my view @ 10 yds.  The point of the arrow is on a ball just under the target and the point of impact is where the arrow is stuck in the target (kinda hard to see but there's an arrow there).  Here the gap is pretty big.
 

[Doug Treat]

OK now, here is the view from 25 yds.  Using the same marker just below the target (same POA), the gap here is much smaller.  Same POA but much different gap.  My pictures aren't perfect because I can't hold at full draw while taking the picture but, hopefully, the "point" (pun intended) comes across.
 

[Doug Treat]

Just measuring on my computer screen, the GAP in the 25 yd. picture is about 1/4 the size of the GAP in the 10 yd. picture with the same POA.

[JohnHV]

Yup. That is what Byron taught us. He said it was not the Gap method, but was Split Vision.  I try not to get too hung up on nomenclature though.