Hook with a glove vs. hook with a tab ?

[mrjsl]

I have shot split finger with a glove for a long time, and currently am using a bigshot glove, which I really like. My bow is a little on the heavy side - 59# at my draw.

Recently, I've been experimenting with a tab - Bateman split finger tab with the elastic band. I took the spacer out, because I kind of like it better out.

I can shoot pretty well with the tab, after a lot of practice, about as well as I can with the glove. I feel like it offers a slightly cleaner release.

I am very consistent with the glove with regards to how I hook the string - in the first joints, most of the weight on my middle finger, etc.

I feel less sure with the tab, almost like I am inconsistent with how I'm gripping the string, and  I have a less sure hook on the string, which leads to hand tension on some shots. But, if get my arrow all the way up the slot in the tab, and hook my middle finger very deep, almost to the second joint of that finger, I am much more consistent.

My question is, does anyone find that they use a deeper hook with a tab and does anyone hook their middle finger up to the second joint? And if you do, do you hit things that you shoot at? I just practiced this a while on the bale in the dark - feels more consistent. Unsure about accuracy and flight, but my arrows are very well tuned.

[Green]

Between the big shot and a bateman tab you'll definitely have a different feeling of the string.  My big shot gives me almost no feeling of the string, but hooking in the first joints happens easily for me with both.  I prefer the tab though as I definitely get a much cleaner release and it allows the arrow/string to be a little closer to my face which helps with point of impact and accuracy in my shooting. YMMV.

[Javi]

I hook to the second joint (middle) of my fingers regardless of tab, glove or bare fingers. As I draw the bow and the back of my hand straightens; the string will roll into the first joint of my middle finger.

As I settle into the shot approximately 85% of the load is on the middle finger and the remainder is on the index finger.

The string is not in the first joint of the index finger but toward the tip as my index finger is shorter than the middle. I find that forcing the middle finger to align the first joint with the other fingers creates incorrect tension in the hand hindering a smooth release..  

Instead I allow the string to fall on the fingers in a natural way while holding the string mostly with the middle finger..

[moebow]

Every one's hand has a different form and what works for one may not work for another.  You have to find what works for your hand shape and your shooting style.

The definition of a "deep hook" is how much some or all of your fingers curl back around the string to point at your throat.  It is NOT how deep into your fingers you place the string (towards your palm).  The string should push the fingers out of the way and the part of the fingers with the least mass to move is the first (finger tip) joint.  Again this must always be tailored to hand shape/configuration.

My recommendation is to try to find a comfortable "hook" that essentially places the string in or near the first joint and then get  at least the main finger (better yet the index and middle finger) around the string and pointed back at you.

You can use whatever finger protection you like but many find the stiffness of a glove or finger tip stalls harder to use simply because they are stiff and don't want to take the bend necessary to point the finger tips back at yourself.

[SHOOTO8S]

I see references to "fingers pointing back at you" from time to time and I'm curious as to the purpose and whats gained by the action ?

[Terry Green]

Rod....I refer to that very thing with beginners...and here's why...

As you know, beginners draw the bow...as the bow comes back, the draw gets harder, so folks 'curl' their fingers closed more and the arrow swings off to the side....so...

I tell them to point their fingers back at them....this way when the bow draw gets harder, the fingers are wanting to go the other way and 'uncurl' due to the pressure....therefore keeping the arrow on the shelf.  I also believe it gives them a better sense of 'security' and control over the string being 1st timers, and that leaves them more available to think about the act of shooting.

Pointing the fingers back aids in reverse cant also for me.

[moebow]

Rod,  The theory of it - as I understand it, and it works well for me - is that by getting the "hook" deep, we can hold the weight of the string with far less tension in our hand/wrist and forearm.  Less tension in that area allows for a easier relaxed hand release.  The NTS teaches this technique.  When I do it correctly, it is almost like an optical illusion, one moment the string is held in the fingers and the next the string is gone and the fingers are still curled in a relaxed position.  The illusion is that it looks and feels as thought the string has simply materialized on the other side of your fingers kind of like magic.

I must admit that this was the hardest thing to learn and acquire in my own relearning of the archery shot.

[SHOOTO8S]

Terry, wouldn't it be more efficient to teach beginners to draw with their back vs introducing more forearm tension that pointing the fingers back requires? I understand that sometimes just getting beginner's to anchor, however is an achievement  

Moe...Im with you on using a deep hook, but I'm still confused as to how pointing the fingers back at yourself is needed for a deep hook?

[moebow]

Rod, It may not be "needed" and hand shape/configuration plays a part in this.  The finger tips pointing back is just the definition and example used in the BEST/NTS.  I know you have some differences with this system as we talked about a little when I took your class in Minneapolis a while back.  I find that if I can get my index and middle finger curled around the string it does reduce the tension in my string arm.  But simply getting the string into the first joint is better than the string out on the finger tip pads.

It seems that the biggest confusion with a "deep hook" is that many folks think it means to move the string down the fingers toward the palm of the hand -- second joint or even farther.

[SHOOTO8S]

Moe, agreed when placing the fingers on the string to at least the first knuckle the fingers will naturally curl around the string,and the tips will be pointing back...problem with the terminology( and the reason I went the long way around in this conversation) is that I'm now seeing folks who after reading somewhere about hooking are trying to keep those finger tips pointed back at full draw and brother that does require tremendous forearm tension to maintain.

[Javi]

Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
Moe, agreed when placing the fingers on the string to at least the first knuckle the fingers will naturally curl around the string,and the tips will be pointing back...problem with the terminology( and the reason I went the long way around in this conversation) is that I'm now seeing folks who after reading somewhere about hooking are trying to keep those finger tips pointed back at full draw and brother that does require tremendous forearm tension to maintain.

I concur... :D

[moebow]

Yep, folks do tend to get carried away with things and "think" they understand.  That's why I tend to overkill the concept of AS RELAXED as possible.  Some folks I work with, you could break an iron bar over their forearm or wrist, they are so tensed up.

[BowsanAiros]

Moe..
"But simply getting the string into the first joint is better than the string out on the finger tip pads."
I have to disagree with you on this statement. I've been shooting and teaching new shooters this way
for many years. We get a better/cleaner release this way.. The deep hook mentioned takes longer to get used to
(to be consistent with )and by doing so, makes me wonder if the weight they are pulling is too much..

[Terry Green]

Rod...correct!

I start that way but they are not pointed back at me at full draw.  And that has been the case for those newbies...I tell them that the string weight will gain and their fingers will natural want to uncurl a bit and to 'let them'....and they grasp that.

[moebow]

You say po-tay-to I say po-tah-to.  I think we are all really chasing the same "tail."

Rich,  I too shot for most of my life with the string out on the finger tips and getting that bulge of finger tip flesh riding like a wave in front of the string.  I also had calluses that you could pound nails with.  I no longer have the calluses and frankly a heavy bow (for me) is more secure in the creases and with less tension required all around.  I will have respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one.

Great discussion though and it is obvious it is making us all think about what we are doing and I believe that is the road to improvement for both shooting and instruction.

[mrjsl]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
Rod...correct!

I start that way but they are not pointed back at me at full draw.  

To clarify, this is what I do too. I do not try to keep my fingernails against my face. My fingers just uncurl somewhat from my original grip. I try to relax my string hand, forearm, etc, and I think I am doing alright with that.

My issue is that I feel I get a better release with a tab, but a more consistent release with a glove if that makes sense. With a glove I start exactly the same way each shot, and with a tab this perfectly consistent starting position is more difficult to attain. Somewhere on the second pad, if not into the second joint of my middle finger is the most consistent feel I have managed so far.

So I'm curious as to how anyone can manage with a tab to hook the string exactly the same way each time without much thought? I'll admit I have done much more shooting with a glove, so maybe it's just repitition.

[Javi]

With most tabs you will wear a groove in them at your starting point just like you do with a glove..

However one reason I like the Black widow tab is the bump in the pad where the red leather is sown on.. It provides me with a witness mark..

[TomBow]

What works best for one may not work best for another.  I had the pleasure of meeting and working on form with Mr. Moebow earlier this week and saw the value of the "deep hook" vs. the finger tip grasp when it comes to allowing as much relaxation in the muscles in the drawing forearm.  I have been a firm beleiver in the deep hook as suggested by Mr. Rod Jenkins and several others in the MOtBarebow videos.  The relaxation in the forearm is something that I was missing.  Each persons hand and muscles physiology will differ so I don't think you can say "you must grip the string in the first joint or the second joint".  It seems to me that you must find your own best string grip and form that allows the cleanest release possible.

I have noticed in the glove vs. tab department that my glove has a grooved in indentation matching my finger joints while my tab has remain ungrooved and softer.  Which release is cleaner?  Heck, I don't know!  But of course, I feel that the FEEL is different due to material thickness.  

The great thing about trad. that I really enjoy is sharing ideas with others and working through form to gain consistency which is ultimately found through proper form.  One man's proper may not be another man's, but ain't it fun to find your own best way and compare it to other's best way?  

Love my longbow....and recurve....and shooting...and discussing form...and working on form....

Best of luck to all and may you all reach the holy grail of "Oh Baby, that was a beautiful shot" shot after shot.

[Green]

Good discussion here.  Having been given tips and coached by Terry and Arne, and read/watched most everything Rod has on this site, and soon to spend a day with Javi, I must say the grip on the string is important to the extent that the result is the relaxed forearm/hand whether it be with glove or tab.  I put more more emphasis on the fact that my wrist needs to be bowed outwards prior to drawing so that when I draw the forearm and fingers achieve a naturally relaxed position. My focus is on drawing with the back muscles and I lose all consciousness of the grip once that process is started.  By it's nature, this motion also helps to keep the arrow secure on the rest as Terry mentioned.

[mrjsl]

To update, I had ordered a Fred Eichler tab, and I like it much better. After a good bit of practice and after owning it two days, I shot a 3d tourney Saturday with it and shot one of my best rounds ever. Won a loc-on stand.

I am getting in in the first groove of my middle finger consistently where it is most comfortable. Put my glove back on today after a few days of not shooting it, and holy cow - my release with the tab is much cleaner.

I think with the eichler tab because of the simple finger ring it is always in the same place on my hand, and not creeping up like the elastic band tab, and I don't have to think about it.