Do you turn loose of the string or do you just stop holding it. ?

[Javi]

Curious as to how many turn loose of the string by opening their fingers and how many let the string pull from their fingers by just not holding it any longer..


What say you…. .

[dragonheart]

Refuse to hold, relax the back of the hand as back tension increases.  I have an article by Al Henderson from the old archery world and his book winning archery that he discussed releasing the string.  When I am behaving I have a perception of "pushing" the draw elbow back, and then simply refuse to hold any longer as the tension between the shoulder blades has increased and tension has transitioned back.  Way too much to write but in reality it is what from my perception the perfect loose of the bowstring.  You can "keep em down the middle" when you shoot with appropriate back tension.

[Green]

Wonder what motivated this question?    

[McDave]

It would seem that both of your alternatives involve a conscious decision: either to open the fingers or to decide not to hold the string anymore. I strive for a subconscious release that is a surprise when it happens.

[dragonheart]

If you allow the release to happen, that is the key.  Continue with the shot through the follow thru.  There is no hold per say, just a slowing of the draw speed and a continued push of the elbow back.  If you are thinking about letting go, not the best for actually live firing.  

I only think about "how" if shooting doing form work. Refuse to hold, that is the key.  The shot for me is process that has a slowing in speed to anchor but to stop and hold is detrimental to the whole shot sequence.  

I used to shoot similiar to Rick Welch with an overdraw, sink, hold.  I shot lighter poundage longbows.  I can't seem to make that work anymore.  That tends to lead to a more deliberate release or a letting go, which I want to avoid all together.

Obviously there is more than one way to have a string come out of our fingers, but I believe that the method of refusing to hold promotes good foundation for follow-thru and proper back tension.

[Javi]

Originally posted by McDave:
It would seem that both of your alternatives involve a conscious decision: either to open the fingers or to decide not to hold the string anymore. I strive for a subconscious release that is a surprise when it happens.

Not to get tied up in a discussion on symbols and the interpretation of their meaning.

Buttttt....  :D  

A subconscious action is usually triggered by a stimulus and is generally uncontrollable, much like ducking from a nearby gunshot, jerking the hand away from a hot grill or even swerving from an object darting in front of your car.
 
A conscious decision to shoot if everything is correct would not usually be followed by an uncontrollable action. I would prefer to think of it as a learned response to a series of processes that make up a shot. As a learned response one would have control and could choose to allow it to happen or not.
 
 The question would still beg, do you throw your fingers open to release the string or do you allow the string to pull from your fingers by no longer holding the string.  Both of these actions could be a learned response and controllable.

[McDave]

Originally posted by Javi:
 
A subconscious action is usually triggered by a stimulus and is generally uncontrollable, much like ducking from a nearby gunshot, jerking the hand away from a hot grill or even swerving from an object darting in front of your car.
 

That is one type of subconscious action.  People who use a non-anticipatory psychotrigger to trigger their release do this.  When stimulus happens, for example, the feather touching their nose, that triggers the release.

Another type of subconscious release is to turn the job of deciding when the release should happen over to the subconscious.

I'm pretty sure you're not in favor of turning loose of the string, for the reason that a human is not capable of timing that action finely enough to shoot accurately.

The next level would be deciding to relax the hand and letting the string pull through the fingers.  That would increase accuracy, but the time lag between deciding to relax the hand and actually doing it means that the arrow is going to be pointed in a slightly different direction when it is released than when you decided to release it.  Maybe you can overcome this by deciding to release as the arrow point is moving in the direction of your mark.

The third level would be to turn the job of releasing the arrow over to the subconscious, which may have a shorter time lag than if you consciously decided to release it.

You're still pretty much in control of the shot.  I shoot every morning with a friend who has a dog, and the dog occasionally runs in front of the target.  So far, every time the dog has done that, I've managed to let the arrow down.  I suppose there is a very short time, less than a fraction of a second, I'm sure, after the subconscious decides to release the arrow that I couldn't stop it, but that same time lag is probably there if you decide to release the arrow consciously.

But mumbo-jumbo aside, the answer to your question is: I don't know.  The arrow just goes at some point after I have reached full draw and continue expanding.  I'm sure that I don't consciously turn loose of the string, however.

I have started doing quite a bit of left-handed shooting lately.  I've discovered that my subconscious mind hasn't figured that out yet.  I get to full draw and continue pulling and nothing happens.  So I relax my hand and the string pushes my fingers away.  It is quite a different sensation than a subconscious release, though.

[dragonheart]

Left handed is a trip!  I have been doing the same lately and it is really different, like it is all new and virgin again this process of shooting arrows.

[Javi]

At some point you practiced a release until it became the way you release an arrow; a part of your conscious mind controls that, just as it does driving a car or feeding yourself. You make a conscious decision to fire and the body responds, the reason you have to think it through when shooting left handed is that you have not trained your body to respond yet...  You decide to raise your arm or make a fist and you brain sends the signal to the necessary muscle groups; it is your conscious mind controlling the action; you are completely cognizant of the action and yet because you learned to move the correct muscles it happens without you telling each specific muscles to act in the correct order..
 
Keep at it and the release will be just as easy left handed as it is right handed.. it just takes a bit of repetition.

[McDave]

I think you're right that what we call the subconscious release is at the same level of consciousness as the minute decisions we make continually when driving to correct the steering or the mechanical actions we make to feed ourselves.

Whether these decisions are made at a conscious level or not is beyond my pay grade.  I certainly don't give any conscious thought that I'm aware of to routine steering corrections or raising the fork to my mouth.  Jay Kidwell, in MBB 4, posits 3 levels of consciousness: subconscious, unconscious and conscious.  He groups subconscious and unconscious together for the purposes of discussing archery with us, although I suppose the terms have different meanings for psychologists.

I'm sure that somewhere in that subconscious/unconscious grouping lies my right-handed release, whereas my left-handed release is defintely still in the conscious category.  And you're probably right, I expect that when I shoot enough arrows left-handed, it will slip down into the subconscious/unconscious category too.

The reason I like my release to be in the subconscious/unconscious category is that I want it to be a surprise, so any reaction I make to the shot is done after the arrow leaves the bow.  There are probably other ways to make the release a surprise if the release is done at a conscious level, but I haven't explored them, as my (something other than conscious) release seems to handle that problem just fine.

[Green]

At least in part, what spawned the question Mike posed in this thread is his work with me over the last three months.  And more intensely on this specific issue recently.

I was up to see him Friday for our third session, and of all the things we've worked on and changed throughout the first two sessions, my ability to perform this "just stop holding" release has been one component of my shooting that I've made very little progress on, and was a source of frustration for both of us.

For 42 years....minus a 10 year hiatus from 2000 until last year, I've drawn to anchor and released....aiming was something that was done "on the way to" full draw....snap shooting if you will.  My release has been like so many....fling the hand open when the shot picture looks right.

I have literally changed every single aspect of my form with outstanding results, but have struggled mightily with the simple concept of just letting the string go without some sort of conscious, instantaneous, and violent hand motion.  I have been searching for a mental cue that will work because the thought of "relax the hand" or "just stop holding" wasn't working.

We've tried working with mentally comparing the release to hanging on the monkey bars as a kid.....when you're tired of hanging you just stop holding and your hands slip quietly away from the bars as you watch your landing.  Simple right?  Yes, if you're not trying to change 42 years of this habit that's linked to a site picture that tells you "Now!", as my mind's eye sees an arrow that's perfectly aligned to hit what I'm aiming for.

What I'm working on to rid myself of this type release is two-fold.  One, Mike has noticed in the past, and reminded me of again the other day is how high a percentage of my holding the string is being done by my ring finger.   I'm working on shifting that percentage to my index/middle fingers by having the ring finger "along for the ride" on the string.....and not being the controlling factor in my grip as it builds up too much tension in the back of my hand leading to my having to throw my hand open to release.

Secondly, I decided not to worry about the recoil/follow through after the shot as this was leading me to simultaneously release the string and try to get my hand to end up behind my head....causing a "jerk" release of my back muscles, arm, and hand.  Proper recoil is going to happen anyway with back tension, so I'm now working on just thinking "quiet" as I'm trying to allow the string to slip away.  What happens after that will happen. These two things seem to be working for me at close range as I blank bale to add these changes and further improve my shooting.

I'd like to hear more from those who've conquered a similar problem if you wouldn't mind.

[poekoelan]

Green, your snap shooting problem sounds alot like the one I struggled with for a long time too. I too was aiming during the draw.

Here's how I fixed it. I compared shooting my bow to shooting a rifle. I don't think about aiming or squeezing the trigger till the stock is on my shoulder and the sights are lined up. So I told myself not think about aiming my bow till I was at full draw and I was deep into my anchor. I did switch to a little lighter bow, shot 3 arrows per group instead of 4 or 5, and kept my range at 15yrds or less. Things started to improve immediately.

After a couple months I went back to my normal bow but still only shot 3 arrows per round. My problem is gone. Now I'm trying to pay closer attention to back tension and pulling through the shot and I'm liking the results of doing that so far.

Also, The "Push Release" dvd was very helpful. It gave me the gun/bow analogy and a couple other little pointers to make that analogy work.

Good Luck
Austin

[LIBowhunter]

Newbie here,

I was very curious about the loose of the  release. I think I will try the not holding method as described. Also the act of not aiming until I'm anchored. Very good insight on this as mentioned in the post. I am so glad I joined. Gotta find out what works best for me. Thanks. Dave.

[Green]

Austin - the snap shooting ended about a year ago when I decided to start learning proper form.  I do still struggle with the release....which I'm trying to make more "rifle shooting like".  Problem is I'm still fighting the old shotgunner in me.    

[cbCrow]

You know I been shooting a lot of years and honestly I could not tell you. I shoot Hill style bows and use a swing draw, I guess by doing it so many times everything just seems to happen when I hit my reference as at that point the string is released and my hand slides along my head to just in front of my ear. I believe that describes a conditioned movement, something that does not have to be thought out just done. I picked up a copy of David Millers book"Shootin the American semi Long" and he said that simply when you get to your anchor,keep tension and point your string fingers at the target. I guess if you do enough thats basically what happens. Simple huh.

[BobCo 1965]

Originally posted by Javi:
Curious as to how many turn loose of the string by opening their fingers and how many let the string pull from their fingers by just not holding it any longer..


What say you…. .

I would say that I am much closer to the "not holding anymore" category. Personally, I do not try to consciously relax the entire hand or arm however to trigger the release as I do not believe this is entirely needed or beneficial. If I am trying to consciously work on the release, I only focus on relaxing the fingertips. When done right, to the naked eye, it will appear as if the string goes completely through the fingers as the finger will go back to the original position after the string is loosed. High speed photo will show the string loosed well before any further movement into the final follow through position.

[dbishop]

I consciously let go of the string.  If I keep pulling and wait to subconsciously let go, I would be there all day holding the bow at full draw.  I have had very little luck with the back tension thing. I know i've felt it when I did it right but I never get that "sudden release". What feels the best is to come to my full draw(you've seen how I anchor Rob)and then burn a hole in the target with my eyes and conciously let go with just my fingers while leaving my thumb pressed against my head behind my ear.  I can say that personally, I don't have much faith in the "keep pulling method".  I feel like any extra pulling or movement once you have come to anchor is just another variable introduced that can cause you to be inconsistant. I would have a hard time being convinced otherwise.  I would rather release from a solid anchor than from one that is moving.  Seems like repeatability would be more consistant that way.  If a person is coming to anchor and then continues to pull, to me that's not really your anchor. Not trying to start any argument because I know the back tension/keep pulling till release method works great for some but it just eludes me and causes more problems than its worth.  I have much better luck this other way.

Hope some of this makes sense to someone else other than me..lol.

Dave

[Green]

You have to shoot with what works for you, and David...what works for you works really well.  Over the past year I've been shooting with you, you've been extremely consistant (we won't talk about the night shoot with luminocks here....lol) and I wouldn't change a thing if I were you.

The amount of time I've spent with Javi this fall is paying big dividends with my form finally coming together since Sunday's shoot and a little change in my practice routine.  Using a "back anchor" as my primary anchor, a dynamic release with proper alignment has made "stop holding" an actuality. You're not really continuing a rearward motion, just keeping the tension in the back anchor, but it eliminates a collapse.  

I guess that prior to the last time I worked with Javi I wasn't getting fully aligned and that made it almost impossible to "just stop holding", and I had to fling open my hand. Now letting go of the string doesn't require the conscious thought it used to.

[30coupe]

Originally posted by dbishop:
I consciously let go of the string.  If I keep pulling and wait to subconsciously let go, I would be there all day holding the bow at full draw.  I have had very little luck with the back tension thing. I know i've felt it when I did it right but I never get that "sudden release". What feels the best is to come to my full draw(you've seen how I anchor Rob)and then burn a hole in the target with my eyes and conciously let go with just my fingers while leaving my thumb pressed against my head behind my ear.  I can say that personally, I don't have much faith in the "keep pulling method".  I feel like any extra pulling or movement once you have come to anchor is just another variable introduced that can cause you to be inconsistant. I would have a hard time being convinced otherwise.  I would rather release from a solid anchor than from one that is moving.  Seems like repeatability would be more consistant that way.  If a person is coming to anchor and then continues to pull, to me that's not really your anchor. Not trying to start any argument because I know the back tension/keep pulling till release method works great for some but it just eludes me and causes more problems than its worth.  I have much better luck this other way.

Hope some of this makes sense to someone else other than me..lol.

Dave

That is pretty much what Howard Hill, John Schulz, and Ron LeClair do as well. I have been working to adopt that release as well as the swing draw. I am much more consistent if I release this way. I tend to pluck the string and my hand flies away from my face when I pull through. The result is usually a high right hit. Old habits die hard though, so I will be working on this for a while before it becomes my shot. So far, it appears to have promise though.

[Ranger B]

When I was a boy my dad gave me a 20 ga. and I killed squirrels left and right.  As I got a little older I wanted a 12 ga. and he said no.  He said it was too much for me but I would hear nothing of it.  So he gave me a 12 ga. and I started missing doves, rabbits and squirrels.  I complained to him and he said I was flinching.  I disagreed but he said he could show me.  He put a Quaker State oil can out at about 30 yards and told me to shoot it - I missed.  Maybe a pellet or two but that's about it.  He said okay bring the gun up to your should and aim.  I did and he then put his finger on the trigger and told me to put my trigger finger on his.  He told me to squeeze his finger to shoot the gun but keep aiming.  I did and when the gun went off I was totally surprised.   I centered the oil can and it knocked the snot out of my shoulder.  I didn't want to shoot the 12 ga. any more.

I've never forgotten that when it was a surprise I centered the can.  The bow is no different.  If you are consciously letting go of the string you will screw it up most of the time.  As a friend once told me, "You can't sneak off that string."  I begin squeezing my back and pulling and the shot and when it seems like the string is going to start going back the shot goes off.  I will be the first to admit that this is the weakest part of my shot.  I am an A type personality.  I like to be in control.  I want to set the shot up and execute it perfectly.  I try to fix everything so it's more difficult for me but I know that if you get to anchor and get everything perfect and then think, okay now I just need to sneak off this string and not screw it up - you will much of the time.