Target Panic Reality Check

[Tron]

I highly recommend dropping as much weight as you can in the process of doing this.  I cured my TP for essentially the same method Joel is offering help with, and wouldn't have been successful if I hadn't hurt my shoulder, forcing me to drop from a 52# to a 30#.  It was the only bow I could pull without my shoulder screaming at me.  I'm now back up to around 45#, can shoot it all day and am finally hitting what I'm looking at.  Good luck to everyone.  Joel this is a wonderful offer you have extended.  I highly encourage everyone to use it.

[Overspined]

I think I figured out a way to get the flipper button attached to about anything, I had to search a hardware store for a viable option, and I hope I found it. Should be easy. I'll post pics once I get it figured out.

[CLICKERMAN]

Everyone,

Sorry I haven't posted in a bit, I am in the middle of working 9 days straight.  I will post some answers tonight when I get home.  Sorry for the delay.  I would highly recommend that anyone with questions to please call me.  2536863623. I have had 59 calls so far.

[Kitseguecla]

I have a new clicker sitting on my archery table . Been thinking of trying it ever since I shot a few rounds with a friend last season who uses one . I have a Question though. Where is the best place to attach it on the limb etc. The instructions are a bit sketchy . I'm shooting a 52 # Hawk recurve 64" long . Thanks Mike

[Overspined]

Hi Joel,

Since our conversation I tried the clicker and failed, then I ADDED the button to press, and I am reigning in the gremlins. Now that I have confidence this will work, I have to re-design where my press button is in relation to my thumb.  I think everyone has a different shaped hand/thumb length.  Anyway, I draw to anchor and the click with the arrow on target, and then press the button to trigger the arrow release. Honestly, I can't believe how well this works.  The clicker alone isn't effective for me, and the button to press isn't great alone either, but the combo is working very well. I am working toward every shot as a controlled shot.  It's almost as if my brain tries to short circuit anything and I need two distractions.  It feels really good to shoot perfect shots, so far as form is concerned. Thanks again for your input!

[CLICKERMAN]

Poekoelan,

A psychological trigger is simply some outside phenomenon that tells your subconscious when to release the arrow.  It can be a clicker, feather to nose, tab sear, or anything that is non-anticipatory.  You should not be able to feel yourself getting closer to the psychotrigger.  In other words, if you use hitting a tooth as your trigger, you can feel yourself getting closer to the tooth, that is an anticipatory movement and will not work as well as a non-anticipatory one.  A non-anticipatory trigger would be like a clicker going off, or a tab sear popping, you can't feel it getting closer to going off and therefore you don't anticipate it.  

The real key, however, is controlling the movement that gets you to your trigger.  This is done with the use of the mantra.  The mantra is just specific words said in a revolving rhythm that puts your conscious mind into the movement that is required for the action you are talking about.  It is the key to true concentration.  I have had 62 callers now and I have asked every one of them, "Do you know HOW to concentrate?" and they have all told me "NO."  Until you know what is going through your mind, you have no way of controlling what is going through your mind.  If you know HOW to concentrate, you can put that skill to work for you under stress and control the movement that gets you to your psychotrigger.  Your shots will go to the same place, because your mind is in the same place, everytime.  Control your thought=Control your shot.  The shot is broken into pieces 1. Draw back and aim   2. Concentrate on the movement that activates your trigger.  Once the trigger activates, the gremlin gets his wish and releases the arrow but you told him when to do it with the trigger.  If the trigger is a surprise when it activates, the release will be a surprise and follow through will take care of itself.  Please call if you have questions!!!!

Thanks,

JT

[poekoelan]

Clickerman,

I ordered all the MBBs ( including 4 ) and I'm looking forward to watching them all, especially 4 since the material hits so close to home.

But some more questions if you don't mind. It seems that what you are saying is that you want something outside of yourself to trigger your release. I tried this for a long time with a timer. I would set the timer to 4 or 5 seconds, press the button and  draw to my anchor and hold til it went off. Other times I would have my wife stand next to me and count.

None of this worked for me. Then I came across a dvd called "The Push Release". I tried ( but didn't like ) the extra movement at the end of the shot, it seemed it would always make me jerk the release. But the whole concept about shooting a rifle made SO MUCH sense to me! It really woke me up to the fact that the anchor point is where the whole shot process really starts, and everything I'd read in the books about "instinctive" shooting seemed to imply that touching your anchor should be your "trigger" to release, and all your concentration should be on the target at all times,no wonder I couldn't come to full draw!!

Once I made the comparison of shooting a bow to shooting a rifle, I was ( and still am ) able to reach my anchor point all the time.

There have even been a few times when I felt my string hand creeping and I called it back before releasing and the arrows still hit well.

However, I should add that ALL of this has taken place either in my basement or my yard, with only my wife being there on occasion. NONE of it has been under stressful conditions. But hell, having target panic for years was stressful enough! LOL

I should ALSO add, that just because I can come to full on every shot doesn't neccessarily mean I have this problem completely licked. All it really means is that I can now reach my anchor on every shot, but I'm miles ahead of where I was about a year and a half ago and my arrows hitting where I want them to is the proof to me.

I'm not really sure I know how to "concentrate" or what is going through my mind. I'm also not even sure if I'm an instinctive shooter or a gap shooter. But I DO know that reaching my anchor is only the beginning of my shot process and I'm much much happier with my shooting after realizing that and making it happen.

But I do have to admit, what happens AFTER that does remain a mystery to me. In other words, I know what DOESN'T trigger my release anymore, but I'm not exactly sure what DOES it now.

Thoughts?


Everything after that is still kind of a mystery.

[CLICKERMAN]

My thoughts are to please call me.  I will explain in detail what should and should not trigger your release.  It sounds as if you are well on your way and you have started separating the shot between aiming and shot activation, however, I would like to explain psychological triggers to you and tell you exactly HOW to concentrate under stress.  I look forward to speaking with you.  253-686-3623

Take Care,

JT

[WESTBROOK]

Joel, You are the Man    

Consider me enlightened.

I just found this thread last night, read part of it and the rest tonight. I just went out and shot 40 of the best, most deliberate arrows that I have shot in a Looooong time.

My problem was getting to anchor and staying there till I was ready. The last month has been just miserable, the worst ever. Like lots of folks I'd go up to 5-10 yds and "work on it", that was even getting tough. At 20-30 yds most times I would never even feel my hand reach my face, let a lone anchor.

Tonight was totaly refreshing, what a rush of confidence.

Basicaly just have to talk myself through the shot.

Tell myself..draw
When I'm a couple inches from my face...Anchor
When I'm coming to anchor...Hold, Pull, Pull
When I'm happy, I dont say pull..its gone!

For me, seems like telling myself the next step just before the current step was complete worked best, leaves no delay in the sequence I guess.

I think this is gonna work.

Thanks Joel for starting this thread! If we ever cross paths I buy ya a cold one.

Eric

[CLICKERMAN]

Westbrook,

I am glad to hear of your success, however, be careful.  It sounds like you are still allowing the subconscious to tell itself when to release.  That may work for awhile, or if you have extreme discipline, it may work for the rest of your life.  But, allowing the subconscious to release when things "Feel Right" plays right into the hands of target panic.  Once your subconscious learns your shot and the words you are using, it may start to shortcut the system to try to make it more efficient.  It makes no sense to your mind to hold on a spot in terms of efficiency, that is why it lets go before anchor.  The mantra is used to concentrate on a movement that gets you to your psychotrigger.  The psychotrigger is what tells the subconscious "When" to let go.  Your shot at this point is working because you have changed the throught process, but once the process is learned by the subcon, just be aware that it will try to shortcut the process.  My suggestion would be to develop a psychotrigger to make your shot absolutely in control under any stress level.  Call me if you need further explanation.  253-686-3623  I am up to 66 callers so far.  Keep it coming!!!!

[Lambow]

I found this thread a couple of weeks ago, and after practicing Joel's system, it's turned my shooting around.

I didn't have a problem coming to anchor, but I did have some trouble loosing the string earlier than I wanted.

Without trying to over analyze it, the system was simple to learn.
Subconsciously aiming while at anchor, along with using the mantra (keep pulling-keep pulling-keep pulling) is the key to getting to my trigger, (fletching to nose) and is where my concentration goes.
I talked to Joel about this concentration level and what he said made sense.
When in a more stressful situation such as shooting in front of a crowd, or the shot of a lifetime on a trophy game animal, the mantra needs to be more aggressive.
Two things that are key for me - the trigger has to be non anticipated, and not loosing the string before conciously getting to the trigger.... in Joel's words, letting the gremlin tell you when to shoot.
The aiming of the shot will take care of itself.

[bbell]

Where can I get a sear to attach to a tab? Can you make one easy enough. What about something for a glove. I get a lot of tension when I use the pinky nail and thumb nail. I have also though of maybe a ring on my pinky finger, further down is where my thumb sits comfortably.
Brandon

[Dan Jones]

I have a question for Joel Turner, or anyone who has been down this road.

I've tried the feather to the nose method, and for several sessions, it worked pretty well.  But then, the old nemesis - the involuntary release - came back, with a vengeance! I've had the same experience with a clicker - it works for awhile, but then the uncontrolled release just overpowers it.

Is there any way that the nemesis can be tamed enough even to allow me to use the feather to the nose technique or a conventional clicker?

Thanks,  Dan Jones

[Dan Jones]

A postscript to my post immediately above:  I realize that I'm probably looking for a miracle here!

Dan Jones

[cch]

I think Joel is on vacation for a week. You might still be able to get him on his phone.

Dan, you have to really use the mantra and not think about the feather touching the nose or the clicker going off. All you should be thinking about is pulling. Use the mantra keep pulling,keep pulling,keep pulling. Concentrate all your attention to pulling and when the feather touches you will shoot.

Call Joel, he can explain it really well. His number has been posted several times.

[Flingblade]

I agree with cch.  When I first started using Joel's technique it worked great but after several months I was releasing early and getting the heebie jeebies all over again so I called Joel and taked to him.  I had missed the most important part - concentration on the pulling not the trigger.  Once I stopped thinking about the trigger it all came together.  Now I concentrate so much on the pulling and the mantra that sometimes I can't even remember the feather touching but the release is a surprise.

[CLICKERMAN]

Dan,

Please give me a call so I can you back on the right path.  Cch said it perfectly but you must understand the WHY behind it all.  253-686-3623

JT

[Dan Jones]

Joel Turner:  Thank you for the offer to call you. And thank you for all of your kind and generous efforts to help archers over the terrible target panic problem. It is truly a curse that hangs over archery. Unfortunately, I am hard of hearing so I try to avoid telephone conversations.

Cch:Flingblade:  Thank you also for your replies to my post.  It may be that my level of concentration is inadequate.  However, I have never been very successful at attempts to count after reaching full draw, or running through a mental checklist, or repeating a mantra. Like other new things, I can do it for a time, but then it seems to be overpowered or erased by the involuntary release. I'd also say that my best shots occur when I'm not consciously aware of thinking anything while shooting. If I casually shoot an arrow across a field, letting it land where it may, it will be a relaxed, effortless shot. Tell me to shoot that arrow only after going through a 9 point mental checklist culminating with a tightening of the rhomboid muscles, and I'll probably release at 3/4's draw - or, worse, freeze at partial draw.  However, I'll try to think anew about concentration.

The crux of my problem is a target. I can draw, hold at anchor and release beautifully if I'm not aiming at and trying to hit a specific target. I can do draw, hold and let down exercises to a fare thee well, and I can shoot nicely at a blank bale, but if I'm faced with a target and have the intent to shoot, WHOOSH - the arrow is gone.  I've never had any transfer effect whatsoever from doing those exercises.

I suspect that the escape from my panic lies in letting go of the idea that the success of a shot is measured by where the arrow impacts a target, but I've found that much, much easier said than done.

Thanks again to all.    Dan Jones

[ericmerg]

hey dan have you tried the master of barebow bridge program? i started closer then 5 yards i started where the arrow cleared the bow by 6 inches or so and when you shoot 12 shots no problem move back to 5 yards
do it again and continue if you make a single mistake  you HAVE to start over took me about a week of doing this 3X a day to burn it into my subconcious now everyshot feels like i rushed it but if i video tape myself im holding for 2 seconds my release has gotten alot better  and the amount of back tension has increased and i recently just scored 218 on a 28 target 3d course due to it im up from mid 140's down to 218

[Dan Jones]

ericmerg: Thank you for your reply to my post. I am familar with Masters of the Barebow 3 & 4.  I can do what you describe . . . as long as there is no target involved. After a few flinches at the start,I can draw and hold and let down at increasing distances.  I can also do that pretty well on a blank bale as long as my eye doesn't find a spot to aim at. Unfortunately, as soon as there is any sort of target which I intend to hit, everything goes haywire. I believe that it was in Fred Bear's original Archers Bible that he described target panic as when the eye triggers the shot before the mind can control it. That's the gist of it, at least for me.