Another cant question

[Bullie]

I am just getting into trad bows after many years away. I coach my school's archery team (compounds Mathews Genesis) and I shoot those vertically. I teach the kids to pick something to use as an aiming reference, though I cannot shoot that way myself.

I shoot with both eyes open only looking at the target. Should I continue to do what I am doing or should I attempt to work some cant into my form while the recurve is still new to me?

[cjgregory]

Archery does not change when one switches bows.  It remains the same.  Fundamentals are fundamentals.  The only difference here is that fundamentals become more critical when one does not have a peep sight to mechanically line up or a let off and release.

NOthing has changed.

[Bullie]

I see where you are coming from but my question leans (pun intended) more toward the cant being necessary or desireable in one's shooting form with a traditional bow.  

I notice that most shooters cant a tradional bow and shoot a compound vertically.  Granted, the peep almost forces a verticle shot but, as you said, I do not have one now.

[McDave]

My experience is that many trad target shooters shoot with almost no cant, maybe just enough to get the string out of the center of their eye over to the corner of their eye.  OTOH, many trad hunters shoot with more of a cant.  I think it has to do with hunting being at shorter ranges, usually, than target shooting.  Minor errors in arrow trajectory introduced by canting the bow won't throw the arrow out of the kill zone at 20 yards, but might throw it out of the kill zone on a 3D animal at 50 yards.

Many of the trad bows we shoot have somewhat of a tendency to shoot to the left, due to cut of shelf, etc., which is somewhat offset by canting the bow.  I'm sure some trad shooters cant their bow to move their shot a little to the right.

It is useful to practice shooting the bow canted at various angles if you intend to hunt with the bow, as you may be required to do that in order to clear various obstructions.

Most of us tend to have a particular cant angle that feels best for us and we use that when conditions permit.

[cjgregory]

Actually I find the cant detrimental to good consistant shooting.  One should lean thier body over with good form intact.  Go to the index of this forum and look at Terry's form clock.  This is correctly applied shooting principles.  It's a great thread and Terry is spot on.

I think that canting looks cool.  I've even seen guys with arrow spine a little too stiff and when they cant thier bow it will hit the bullseye.  The problem with a cant is that it is not duplicatable every single time.  Whereas setting good form and leaning or turning at the waist affords the best possible opportunity.

[Bullie]

Thanks!  Good info.

[mahantango]

IMO if the arrows are tuned correctly it should make no difference if the bow is vertical, canted, or reverse-cant. If the point of impact changes with bow position then something's not right. I personally like enough cant to get the riser out of my line of sight and the nock right under my eye. Just comes down to what you are comfortable with.

[JJB2]

mahantango, if over-canting the bow doesn't change the point of impact something magical is happening.  Take your bow and nock an arrow, hold it straight up and down, now cant the bow...if you're right handed the arrow moves down and to the right.  You have to adjust your hand position (move it up and to the left) to hit point on to where you were looking when you had it straight up and down.  Also, canting the bow at different angles from shot to shot makes it harder to duplicate form, alignment, etc.  

If it works for you, that's cool.  It will just be harder for most folks to become consistent shooting that way.

[Terry Green]

Cant never could......

Cause Cant wasn't a bowhunter.....Or...Cant don't really know HOW to cant....or understand canting.....and that's why he 'cant' do it and thinks no one else CAN.

I see questions arise about 'where' to cant, 'how much to cant', 'can you cant the same way twice'?  Target archers need to drive tacks and execute the same exact shot over and over....BUT!  Bowhunters, especially those that spend a lot of time on the ground need to be a bit more versatile IMO. They should be able to manufacture and deliver shots from the terrain and environment Mother nature throws at them. I hope to show that you can cant the bow how ever you want to, and that it doesn't have to be the same angle every time.  

Form is from the waist up....no mater the cant or revers cant.  Being properly aligned has no boundaries on a HOST of various shooting positions...unless you hold yourself to one shot....whether one cant angle or vertical.

Every person needs their 'back yard' shot', and need to be able to shoot how they feel comfortable, either vertical or canted.  Yes, it is easy for most to cant the same angle every time.  Once you get your back yard shot down, you can then add variations to your shot to capitalize on opportunities that arise in the field, as we most times have a small window of opportunity. All it takes is devotion and determination.

Also, contrary to what you may 'hear' or some folks claim....canting at different angles WILL NOT shorten your draw length if you are properly aligned.  I demonstrate this in The Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD along with proper alignment.  Proper alignment makes for a stable shooting platform from many shooting positions.

Bowhunter's have also been accused of 'dumbing down' the sport of archery by non-hunting target archers.....but I say with a little effort and imagination, we can jazz it up pretty good.


  Over the Pond......

I always like telling folks what they CAN do instead of can't do....an if you so choose, you CAN CANT.      

[Terry Green]

As far as canting the same way....

Here's my 'go to' or 'back yard' shot....the one I'd always like to have....

I cant so I can see the field of play better, and not have the bow in my main field of vision.  I hunt lots of different critters, and when there's a crowd,...there's also a crowd of eyes...and I like to keep an eye on everyone so I know when to draw without getting caught.  It works for me and a lot of folks I know and hunt with.  This is NOT any slam on shooting vertical...I've shot a few animals vertical ....and a few reverse cant as well due to vegetation issues a the time the shot....and even drawn almost horizontal when I was crossing slough up to my waist in water trying to get to get on some hogs and they turned and came toward me.  My partner said he would have given a $100 to have a camera and gotten a pic of me at full draw on that boar....and so would I!!!

The following videos were  not  shot with the intention of posting them.  I was 'considering' filming myself, and testing out some settings on the camera, angles, and distances for my own evaluation.  My wife hadn't even used this video camera before, and never used a tripod either.

Anyway, the clips turned out OK, so I ran them by a few guys to tell me what they thought, hence my trag gangers comment. I was more interested in quality, lighting and what not, so I could at least try and make a decent one once I got it figured out.  But, I was told to POST them 'as is', no need to 'perfect' them.  With some positive prompting, I decided what the heck. Well, I still ain't sure I should be posting them, but I trust these guys a lot.

Some computers run them smoother than others.  Straight off my card reader, they are a bit choppy, and with some sound delay.  But, if I email them to myself, they played much better.  Heck if I know.  So I appologize if the quality is poor.  I think the clips captured my form despite the very odd feeling I had shooting in front of the camera.

I enjoy the shooting threads as much as any, whether I'm contributing or being the student.  Maybe these clips will help make my contributions more clear, and I'm sure I'll learn something as well.

I'd like to thank my wife for helping me, amoungst the heat, and bugs.  And for being a sport even though she didn't have a clue as to what she was doing.                                              


  Broadside profile with wife\\'s commentary   2.0 MEG  wmv file

  Isolation repeat & slo-mo  (new)

Again....there's NOTHING wrong with shooting vertical.....but being ABLE to cant is an advantage for the bowhunter.

[Guru]

Good stuff, I couldn't agree more with Terry.

Like him I've killed animals shooting straight up, parallel to the ground, and everywhere in between.

Being ready and confident to execute an accurate shot from any position will go a long way to helping you fill your freezer!

[jonsimoneau]

I love that video Terry.  I wish I could shoot like that.  It looks so cool!  And deadly!

[charles m]

               

[Terry Green]

Jon....you could if you wanted to.

And don't let anyone tell you you cant....pardon the pun.    

[frank the hunter]

i got into trad archery because i wanted to be able to shoot in any postion from vertical to horizontal does not matter to me arrow gos to the same place every time good luck with it.

[charles m]

Yeah.  Especially from someone who just took a seminar and became and instant expert, and wants to tear down everyone else that doesn't shoot like he does now that he's the expert.

Those types remind me of being in the theater parking lot when the movies let out 25 years ago.  It was real easy to tell which kids just saw The Karate Kid cause those were the ones all kicking and chopping each other.

[Guru]

Charles, Just wondering what's behind your comment?

I would have asked in private,but PM's are disabled...

[calgarychef]

I'll say one thing about canting.  My shooting falls apart when I cant and the absolute worst shots I've seen are from people who cant.  Ok well I said two things but you get my drift.  Olympic archers...the best in the world don't cant....something else to think about.

[charles m]

Sorry Curt, I was refering to the poster that got his post pulled the other day.  Took a seminar and started tearing everyone else down.  I and several others alerted that post.

Calgary, no one here is slamming holding vertical, if you cant cant that doesn't mean everyone can't.  Olympic archers don't have a need to cant, bowhunters do.  

Howard Hill was one of the best, and he canted.  I don't' know why some feel like there needs to be an argument over which is best.  Both work ,no need to argue.

[Guru]

Thanks for the explanation Charles      

calgarychef, Some of the finest "successful" bowhunters I know, have hunted with, and have personally seen shoot, shoot with a cant. And I've been fortunate to share a lot of camps with a lot of people!

No matter cant or no cant...a guy that's a bad shot, is just that, a bad shot.

I've seen guys shoot straight up that couldn't hit the bs of a barn, just like I've seen with canters. Some guys just don't shoot very well...and that has nothing to do with degree of "cant"