Form videos for critique

[HenrikBP]

I finally got around to shooting some video clips of my form, and would greatly appreciate any feedback.

I struggle with consistency: up, down, left, right.  I can have nice 3" groups at 15 yards, and then some fliers. On bad days mostly fliers with the occasional "Hail Mary" shot. I have been working a lot on form on close bale and with a resistance band in front of the mirror. I thought before these videos that my main problems were keeping back tension and a "relaxed release", but see now that my bow hand has "issues" as well.

I shoot a Morrison ILF 17" riser with "Long" foam core recurve limbs. 45# at my ~27" draw length. I shoot a tab with 3 fingers under. My arrows are CE Maxima Blue Streak 250 (.413 static spine). 29 1/4"BOP, 50 gr. insert and 145gr. point. Total arrow weight ~455 gr.  I think the arrow spine is close, but arrow planing is not helping me due to my inconsistent form.

I try to use rotational draw and anchor with my index finger in the groove behind the 2nd "fang" in my upper jaw. Secondary anchors is my thumb behind and around the angle of my jaw, and the cock feather touches my nose as a reference point. I've been trying to "find" back tension as an anchor, but don't really feel it.

I generally shoot a little slower than what you see in the video - I guess the recording made me a bit nervous   . But I generally spend a bit more time at full draw than what you see.

My shot sequence as I go through it in my head is:

- check stance, bow hand, string hand. Exhale.
- bring bow up on inhale
- rotational draw on partial exhale - think: "Back Tension". At the end of the draw check that bow hand and string hand are both relaxed
- check anchor point and aim - making sure the arrow is below my eye and string a blur. Otherwise I hit left.
- feel and increase back tension and "pull through" the release
- follow-through


Here are the videos:

Front shot:      

Back shot:      

Back shot - slow motion:      

"Top" shot - slow motion:      

Close-up of string hand - slow motion:      

Close-up of bow hand - slow motion:      


I have looked through the videos and these are the things I think I see:

- my stance is slightly weight forward. I should balance my weight on both feet.

- I lean my head forward and to the side to "snuggle" up to the string and anchor, instead of letting the string hand "come to me"

- my string elbow is a bit high, and I should probably rotate it a tad further back.

- the string hand creeps a bit forward just before the release.

- I "grab" the bow on the release

- my head moves back and away on the shot (string hits the tip of my nose most of the times), but it should probably stay still.

I'm sure there is more, so fire away. I'd would greatly appreciate any and all suggestions for what to fix and how to fix it.

Thanks,

Henrik

P.S I know the "Top Shot" should have been from up higher, but there was no way my wife was climbing to the top of the 8' ladder    

[moebow]

Henrik,

OK, here we go.  

Note: for anyone else following this thread, what I am going to suggest are techniques that address some of Henrik's concerns.  They are meant for training and learning NOT necessarily an end hunting shot.  That will come from the training suggestions.

You are really, really looking pretty good.  What I suggest here, hopefully will let you feel the back more as you say you don't really feel it right now.

In video 1 from the front, lift the bow hand, arrow and string hand as high as your nose (or even a little higher than that.)  Your move is good, it just should go higher.  From that position, try to think that you are pulling the string hand  and bow hand in a slightly downward motion. String  hand and bow hand always stay at the same level when compared to each other.  Do you see in the video, as you draw, that your string elbow is moving UP in relation to your shoulders.  That is putting you into the upper deltoids and arm muscles and consequently you don't feel the back because it is not there.

Video 2 from behind.  In addition to the change I suggest above, when you get the Bow raised to your "start drawing" point ("Set up" position in the NTS) You are holding the arrow in a straight line to the target.  Try this, while KEEPING your bow hand on target, let your string hand move out from your face more and allow the arrow to point to the left of the target.  This will give you more room to move around your spine with the string side.  Watch the arrow move into alignment as you draw and let the bow turn slightly in your hand.  By keeping the arrow inline with the target your are "scrunching" yourself and have no room to do a rotational draw.  This is also apparent in the third video, watch them both again to see how the arrow inline with the target makes you use the arms rather than the back.

Video 4, overhead, rear.  Good final position!  If you can get this with back tension you WILL have it whipped!  Right now though, you can see the bulging forearm muscle (on top) and tension in your elbow.

Video 5, front slow motion.  Watch your chest (upper sternum) at release.  You have NO expansion.  As you get ready to release, think about pushing your upper sternum out toward the camera a very little OR think pull your string shoulder back still a little more.

Now to your thought process you list that you use during the shot.  Below, I have modified it a little.  I feel it is important to get as much "stuff" out of the way before the shot is started.  I have moved your string hand and bow hand check to the beginning.  Set them and forget them.  They will stay the same if yo don't think about them again.  Also that little distraction at full draw will "disconnect" you from your back.

- check stance, bow hand, string hand.   Check that bow hand and string hand are both relaxed. ROLL BOW ELBOW ALL THE WAY CLOCKWISE. Exhale.
- bring bow up on inhale
- rotational draw on partial exhale - think: "Back Tension".
- check anchor point and aim - making sure the arrow is below my eye and string a blur. Otherwise I hit left.
- feel and increase back tension and "pull through" the release
- follow-through

Henrik, this may sound like there is no hope, but I REPEAT, you have the basics, I am just trying to help you get more "back" in the game.  Also, there is a LOT of information here. Do NOT try to do it all at once!!!  Start with raising the bow to above nose level with the string hand out so the arrow points to the left of target WHILE your bow hand is "on target."  Learn to draw this way and find your back (think about movement AROUND your spine).  This is an area where the form master is priceless.  Work on this for a good while as it WILL feel very strange in the beginning.  You may want to review some of the videos I've done in light of the above comments.  They may help clarify what I am trying to say.

Let me know how it goes and of you have ANY questions.  As always, try to find a local coach IF possible.

Arne

[HenrikBP]

Arne,

Thank you so much for taking the time for such an in-depth description/instruction. And no worries - I don't feel overwhelmed or discouraged at all      

I went straight home to try out the high set-up position and letting my string hand move "around" my spine. You're right - it feels a bit odd, but mostly because it's a new movement, and I really have to focus, especially on how my string hand moves. I recently re-watched your "Release Tips" video, and what you pointed out about string hand position helped today.  I've watched all your videos several times btw. - just wasn't able to put all the pieces together yet    

In short, I think I finally felt low mid-back muscle tension - yay      

Before I could feel my shoulder blades squeeze and some back muscles working, but I never could get it to move "down" and get a solid or stable feel.

Following your instructions, it feels very much like a good Lat Pull-down would feel in strength training, so I recognize what it should feel like. And it was obvious today, that I couldn't get to that low back tension when I fell into old habits.

I've been using arrow flight and impact as a way of judging my form; when it feels good, arrows fly and impact straight. And today, when I stuck to the instructions it felt right and the arrows flew straight.

Thanks again for all your help - I've learned a lot from all your Shooting Form posts.

I'll work on this for awhile and post some follow-up video.  I also have webbing ready to DIY a Form Master - just need to figure out how exactly to put it together and find someone to stitch it for me.

Henrik

[moebow]

That's good to hear Henrik.  The homemade form master is pretty easy to do and there is only one hand stitch to make -- easy to do with needle and thread, just make it strong.  Then there is an eye to put in too.  There are some threads around for making a home made one , just do a search I think they will come up.

Take it slow, don't "speed" ahead on any of the steps.  It is a proven fact that to get something new to feel right takes 21 practice sessions.  Just trying it today and deciding that it works or doesn't work isn't good enough.

Looking forward to your follow up videos.

Have Fun!!!!

Arne

[HenrikBP]

I'll take it a bit at a time. I'm fortunate that I can practice every day, so I don't feel a pressure to keep shooting when it feels like I shouldn't. 12 - 20 shots once or twice a day at close bale with full focus on form.

And my local club has a weekly 3D shoot to keep it fun as well. I realize that "trying to hit" something may slow down the progress, but it's a relaxed shoot ... and good fun.

Btw. do you by chance have Scandinavian ancestry?

Henrik

[moebow]

Ya, I have a little Norwegian in me   :D   I'm a 4th generation Norwegian on both sides of the family.  I think that's kind of rare these days.

[HenrikBP]

Ah, yes. I'm Danish and haven't found the name Arne outside of Scandinavia ... until now      

Those Norwegians certainly stuck to their own kind, didn't they. 4 generations back - they'd still be back in Norway at that time  

[HenrikBP]

Double post ...?

[HenrikBP]

I've been shooting a lot close bale and blind bale working on form. I've been trying to incorporate your rotating draw and other suggestions.

I have been getting a bunch more back tension, and have also found more solid anchor. When all goes well, my groups have tightened up (most of the time), and after tweaking my arrow set-up I've managed to get rid of most of a "hitting left" problem.

I'm still having trouble with 2 issues:

- I can't consistently get the "push / pull" of bow hand / string hand after I get to full draw and good anchor even if I feel I have good back tension. I will occasionally get just a slight string hand pull going and get a good clean release. But often times, even though I try to get the pull going, I get good back tension, but not that "good feeling"

- my bow hand will occasionally veer off quite a bit, most often to the right, just as I let the arrow go.

I'm guessing it's all about more back tension          

The things I see in the videos are:

- I grasp the bow with my string hand fingers, just fractions before the release

- my weight is on my back leg, and it looks like I lean my head back a bit

- my string elbow may be a tad high at full draw, and in a few shots start to move right just before the release

- I don't have to start with the bow that high  

- it looks to me like my draw ends up with pretty good alignment string elbow - arrow - bow hand.

- it's tough to see if my shoulders line up with the arrow ... maybe.

Anyway, here are a front, rear, top views and a close-up of bow hand.  In at least one shot in the top view it is obvious that my string elbow starts to move right just fractions before the release.

Front:          

Rear:          

Top:          

String hand close-up:          

I'd be grateful for any comments.

Thanks,

Henrik

[moebow]

Henrik,

Great progress!!!!  You have identified some of the areas you need to work on very well.  Yep, try to get your bow fingers down on the bow before you draw,  "catch" the bow before you shoot it, not as you shoot it.  I can't really see your weight distribution, but in the first video, you have an obvious "lean back."  Look at your spine/torso -- see the lean?

The reason you see the bow and bow  arm drop at release is because you do not have the bow arm 90* to your spine.  This is a critical angle to maintain. By maintaining the 90* angle, the bow drop will be reduced or eliminated.

Your string elbow is at a good height at full draw.  You DO creep forward a little in some of the shots, as you point out.  Part of that is, in some of the shots, you sort of "hunt" for your anchor point on your face.  That "exploring" causes you to loose mental contact with your back which leads to the creep.

No, you do not have to start your draw quite so high, BUT!, doing it this way for now will help you get the "feel" of getting into your back.  Once you have that "feel" you will be able to draw from MANY starting positions and still get to your back.  Just don't rush this part.  Work on it like you are until you are confident that you have the end back tension "feel" and can END up there each time.

Your alignments at full draw are very good!  I especially like your string forearm/wrist at full draw.  One thing here, when you start your draw, you have your string hand thumb sticking straight up then as you come to anchor, pull it down and back.  Try to start with the thumb down and back and leave it there.  This simply eliminates a movement that is not necessary during the draw. (another mental distraction)

You mention trying to get the "push/pull" feel.  This has been a technique for years and some do it very well and it goes hand in hand with another older philosophy of "squeezing" your shoulder blades together.  I would suggest that you eliminate the "push/pull" goal and think more about "bridging" yourself into the bow.  You want a 50/50% weight distribution between your bow hand and string hand and the weight of the bow supported on your bones.  There will be no push or pull, just a balance between your hands.

Your bow hand movement is a combination of the 90* angle (see above comments) and the occasional slight creep. On the shots where you can see the string elbow start to move out to the right during the release, and combined with the arm/spine angle your bow has no choice but to move down and right.

Nice release, you could "bottle" it and sell it.  Many could use it.

Keep at it, you're doing great.

Arne

[HenrikBP]

Thanks Arne, for the review and the kind words.

Yes, I noticed both bow hand/fingers and the lean. I tried to "fix" the lean in the later videos, but it's not visible due to the camera angle.

Good point about my bow arm. I see it angling up a bit from my shoulder. And I can see how keeping it there would require my shoulder muscles to pull/hold the arm down, so when released my bow arm will suddenly "drop". Combine that with how a creeping string hand/arm will try to pull my bow arm towards the front, and I can have all kinds of movement going on.

I do have some trouble getting straight to my anchor point, and "hunt" for it a bit. Problem may be that I want it "perfect", when "good enough" is probably "good enough"  

Got a good chuckle when I noticed my string thumb sticking up. The movement down is on "automatic" and I don't actually think about pulling it down. But it goes with my hunting for anchor; it would be better if the thumb was down and ready to just slide into place behind my jaw.

I really like your description of the "bridging".  I've been "searching" for lots of back muscle action, and for awhile did try to pull down and squeeze my shoulder blades as you describe - it didn't go well     But the "bridging" makes sense. Find that spot where good / sufficient back tension maintains a balance between bow and string arm, and then "expand through" the release from that balance point.

Thanks again, I'll get back to working at it   :D

Henrik

[HenrikBP]

Been awhile ... but;

- it feels like I've made progress. Fixed some of the issues above - and of course run into others  :-)

- I've been doing a lot of form work which is slowly paying off

- it's both a good day and a bad day when you finally admit that most (all really) of the arrow flight issues you run into are caused by improper form  :-D

Unfortunately my camera died, and the nice loaner moved to another state  ;-)  I'm shopping for a decent camera that will shoot slow motion though.

Question: I've been using bare shafts pretty much exclusively when I work on form.  I feel that how the bare shafts hit the target, helps keep me honest about how well I executed the shot. Am I correct about that?

For instance, if the arrow hits nock right my release was less than ideal. If it hits nock left it's because I didn't get enough back tension into the shot.

Of course I've been trying to figure out why I sometimes get arrows that hit nock low and can't figure out what I'm doing wrong to get those ...?

So - is bare shaft flight - and therefore impact in target - a good way to evaluate form?

Thanks,

Henrik

[moebow]

Hi Henrik, good to hear from you again and that it is going well.

Using bare shafts is a great way to work on form.  They show any flaw graphically.  I wouldn't put too much store on how they stick in the target, but how they are flying to the target.  Various targets can affect how the arrow sticks and may be misleading.

"- it's both a good day and a bad day when you finally admit that most (all really) of the arrow flight issues you run into are caused by improper form :-D"

This statement is SO important for shooters to understand!!!  Arrow flight is 95% the person shooting and only 5% equipment.

Arne

[HenrikBP]

Thanks Arne, that's good to know.

I am aware of how the target can skew the arrow impact. I use a good bag target that holds it's shape well. But I also know that when a certain area gets "worn", I can't trust the arrow-to-target angle much anymore.  On shorter distances it gets tricky to see the arrow in flight, so I use the target "angle" as a guideline - not the "absolute truth".

I find that as I increase the distance to the target, my form suffers - just as Rod Jenkins predicts        so I've been working my way backwards slowly, making form the main objective.

I actually make my best shots with my eyes closed, standing about 7-8 yards from the target. I think I've now found that "sweet spot" where back tension and expansion "aligns" with my mechanical alignment ("Bridging" as you've mentioned before), for a shot that feels good and puts a bare shaft straight in the target. Of course I have yet to find the most "direct way" to that spot, and it doesn't happen all the time either. But at least I know it when I feel it.

I can see how archery can be a Zen like experience  :-)

[HenrikBP]

I shot a few more form videos, and it looks like I should have done that sooner            But first things first:

I now always start a session using a Formaster. I do a few draws using only the Formaster to draw the string back in order to activate my back muscles.  I then do a few "draw and let down" to try to feel for form and good back tension.  Then 5-10 "draw and release" to confirm that I have good back tension:

       

And here are some video of my form from various angles.

Front:          

String hand close-up:          

Top view:          
(The top view video is long, so feel free to skip through it        )

So this is where it looks to me like I made a few steps backwards.  In the top view and string hand close-up I see much more of a string hand "Flip" than what I saw back in July.  When I step through the release frame-by-frame, the string comes free of my fingers with very little finger movement happening, but then as my string arm/hand comes back, there is much more of a hand flip.  Compared to July, my hand and arm are also not coming as straight back now.

Am I not getting enough back tension, or do I just need to get my string elbow another little bit towards my back (the last bit of the "J")?  Or is it something different?

I think I'm getting my string hand free fingers tucked in nicely now, and my overall alignment looks ok as far as height of string elbow and alignment between string forearm and arrow goes. Again, I could probably bring my elbow a bit more towards the back for an improvement there.

My bow hand is better, and I now have a light grip with the bow fingers - they're really just resting loosely. But I see the bow fingers move a bit during the draw and during the hold phase. I also notice that they seem to still "grip" or "catch" the bow just at the release - this I mostly see when stepping through the video frame-by-frame.

Overall I release much to quickly now. I'm trying to use Rod Jenkins' 7 steps, but when I get to "Aim", I usually have enough back tension that the shot just "goes".  What I really need to work on is to wait until I get a good feeling of tension in my Rhomboids and then let the shot happen.  This may also be why my release has gotten worse - as I probably don't get all the way into the back tension and therefore also don't have as good overall alignment.

Any thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

[moebow]

Hi Henrik,

Over all looking pretty good, you are very close.  It looks to me that the string hand flip is caused by a slight loss of back tension as you release.

Part of that , I think, is caused by how you are drawing.  Look at the overhead videos and see how you, at set up, have the arrow pointed at the target and how close to your face/shoulders your string hand is. Then when you draw, see how your string hand moves out then around your head?

 Try to get that string hand OUT farther so the arrow points to the left of the target (bow hand stays on target) Then draw straight in to your anchor -- this is an angle from out to in.  This will get you to use your string shoulder more and cause a stronger connection to your back.  This motion will cause the arrow to move from the left of target orientation to "on target" IF you keep your bow hand still and on target.

This out to in direction is then continued at release.  This will pull your string hand straight back along your face/jaw bone.  It also helps with keeping you connected to a strong back.

You are much closer than it might feel right now, just minor adjustments.

Happy New Year!!

Arne

[HenrikBP]

Thanks so much Arne.

It sounds like you are telling me to do a better "Rotational Draw" - if I understand you correctly?

 I think I was doing a better rotational draw at some point, but as you know, until it becomes "muscle memory", certain steps can slip when you start focusing on improving other steps  

It *can* get a bit frustrating, when it seems that some of the pieces are falling into place, only to have pieces that were in place before slip out of place.

[moebow]

Yes,  in the rotational draw, the hand moves in a straight line from out to in.  That is what makes your elbow move in an arc.  It is a common error using this method to have the string hand move in an arc.  That is what I see in your overhead video.

Pulling your shoulder back more will cause your upper arm (humorus) to act as a lever and makes the elbow to move in an arc.

Arne

[HenrikBP]

Thanks Arne,

I shot a few arrow this morning, and focused on first getting to full draw and anchor, and then increasing back tension and bringing the elbow back further.  When I did manage to do that, the release felt cleaner, and arrow flight improved as well.

I'll keep at it  

Thanks again for your help.

We're trying to get Rod Jenkins out here to do a Shooting Clinic in the spring. It'd be great to get some "hands-on" coaching to clean up my form. Fingers crossed.

[moebow]

Good luck, I attended Rod's clinic a few years ago and he does a GREAT job!!!  If you can get 10-12 folks to commit to the clinic you will all be more than rewarded with a great program.

Arne