i want to hit 'em like HH

[khardrunner]

I think perhaps you have to build into the speed. Using a swing draw and releasing at anchor is a skill that will take quite a lot of time to learn. So just start out holding a little longer than a "snap" shooter...hold for a couple seconds if you like. As you become more confident and comfortable, if you want it too your hold time can decrease. This is likely over a lifetime of shooting.

[Ben Maher]

as a recovering snap shooter , I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Westbrock and LBR

[Ric O'Shay]

Originally posted by Ben Maher:
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Westbrock and LBR

Me too!

[cahaba]

Sledge I would for sure call sunset hill. He knows alot about the Hill style of shooting. I have also shot this way all my life. Growing up in the same town Mr. Hill was from helped. His system of shooting is a most excellent way to hunt in a variety of situations. Mr. Schultz who is Mr. Hills protege said to start on the blind bale and shoot that for at least a month without any target concentrating on form only.

I have nothing against gap shooting. It has to be an effective way to hunt also. Heck just looking at some of the names here that use gapping leaves no doubt but for me I will stay with Hill style. If your happy with your shooting stay with it and try to improve and be the best you can be. If you are not happy make a decision on what type of system you want to use and go for it with determined dedication. We owe the animals that much.

[sledge]

thanks, cahaba.

i am indeed determined, and sunset hill and i are in touch.

joe

[Overspined]

I'm a snap shooter , and also do some controlled shooting with a hold for practice.  I hit the corner of my mouth and the deer dies. Yes I miss sometimes too        I've shot deer on a flat out run and do fine with arial targets. I find that I shoot best snap shooting, but I have a BIG limitation.  It's YARDAGE. I shoot light bows, and heavy arrows for hunting. I have recently started making some target arrows a bit lighter with 125gr points, which helps.  So here's the thing, I just get too much arrow drop to shoot past 20 yds consistently.  Hill shot heavy bows, and when he did demonstrations and wanted to lower the bow weight, it was like a toy for him. If you want to follow and emulate Howard, I say go for it, but if you can't handle 60#+ bows, I would caution your expectations. I think he shot bows more commonly with much heavier pulls than that.

[YORNOC]

All these years I thought I was a "gap" shooter. Maybe I'm not?
 I dont know yardages in the woods, just figure through years of shooting where that arrow tip should be (in my secondary vision) in relation to an animal Ive decided to take. I'll anchor and hold for a whole minute if it steps behind a bush waiting for it to step into a clear shot. If it is already in the open, I'll release after about a second( I guess?)I no longer "snap" shoot. I was terrible at it.
I personally have never been able to shoot an arrow without noticing it. Nor do I understand why I would not want to notice it.
I thought I had it all together till I read this, now I dont think I fit anywhere.
I'm lost. Just kiddin'. I dont care what my system is called, it works for me.

Sledge, good luck at mastering that style! If you do it, GREAT! If not, plenty of others to choose from or mix together. You have the right attitude to tackle it, thats for sure...

Hittin 'em like Sledge!

[Overspined]

I shoot best when I don't look at the arrow at all. There's a lot of ways to skin a cat!

I think there will only really be ONE Howard Hill. I have a friend that told me that after researching the mechanics, teachings, and everything, HE was going to be the NEXT Howard Hill. He really thought it would just be a process of hard work.  Well, he laughs about it now, he is humble and is in awe of Howard.  Could it really be that hard?  No, and Yes. I think if you can handle heavy bows, it's all mental, and few have the mental capability to shoot like that consistently.

[sledge]

up early.  going hunting!!

to be clear, i have no illusions about becoming the next  howard hill.

i'm not even very good at being the current joe sledge.

i just want to learn to hit reliably to 30 yards without holding at full draw.

btw, i shoot a fairly light arrow (540g/8.6gpp) from a fast 63# bow.  trajectory is not a big problem to 30.

i struggle more with windage.

joe

[toddster]

gentleman, I like this thread and kudos to all for comment's and effort in keeping the Hill legacy alive.  Few points I want to point out if I may.  One, we all are or was athletes at one time and know that some have natural talent and others have to work hard, Howard had both.  Two, The times we live in, Howard started shooting a bow when he was 6 I believe and kept shooting all his life, so instead of coming into it at the average age now of 24.  The recreation of the generation was that, there was no tv, no games, no AC this is what they did for fun.  Howard as already stated was a natural (could of played pro golf and worked as golf pro for while at club), and he cultivated the shooting style we know into his own, customized it.  to emulate someone is great, but remember the system works, but have to custom fit it to you.  thanks for letting me ramble. Keep your string waxed and God bless the USA.

[Overspined]

Sledge,

Don't take my post wrong, I just mean that a lot of us try to shoot like Howard.  After a while, most change their expectations and realize how amazing he was, and do our best.  If you figure out the secret, let us all in!!

[Rossco7002]

My experience is that the right style for any individual is developed by tthat individual. I've tried numerous different ways to shoot abow and taken parts from each that I've liked and discarded the rest to make a system that works for me.

At full draw I look something like Howard does BUT to get there I don't swing draw (but I can if need be) and I hold for a second or two at anchor before release. I'm conscious of my arrow in my field of vision but I don't deliberately set a gap or use a deliberate aiming method.....


I'm sure this style will continue to evolve for me as the years go by. I won't hold rigidly to it, rather I will change anything to make myself a more accurate and effective hunter.

Right now I can hit good out to thirty yards but ever time I practice I push myself to get better and better...

[Kelly]

Originally posted by Cory Mattson:
the difficulty has been created by trying to make 'gap shooting' "look" like instinctive shooting. "split-vision" is nothing more than a drama confusion description designed to blend gap & instinctive. I shoot regularly with the very best gap shooters and instinctive shooters alive today. I would recommend picking the style which you are more accurate in hunting situations. Do not assume the more structured gap method will hold you back because in many hunting situations you have plenty of time and control (blinds, stands, acorns, alfalfa) My choice is instinctive (40 years shooting year round)and I do not see the arrow at all. Instinctive shooting is much more fluid and quicker - although shooting too quickly is a bad habit  in my opinion.

Most of us shoot hay bales only, recommend asbells first book for form - Ricky welch when you want to develop accuracy to your maximum potential.

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Absolutely physically impossable to shoot accurately without seeing(even in secondary vision) where ones arrow, bow arm and/or bow is pointed. If one can not see the relationship of where one is pointing(standing and holding bow arm up in a drawing motion is pointing something and your sub conscious does see and use where the arrow/bow and/or bow arm is pointing. You may think you don't see it but you absolutely do see it.

If you continue to say one does not see the arrow then try and shoot consistently with your eyes closed.

When I shoot at longer shots, I try to shoot hard. As an example, when we are walking out to where we hunt in the afternoons,we stump shoot for the the first half mile, taking mostly 40 yard plus shots. To be as nearly dead on as possible at long shots, for me, I think 'POWER' maybe a quarter second hold at a firm anchor and then release hard.  It is too easy to get a soft sloppy release for me if I am always taking close fast shots.  Practicing long shots really brings the cast of each shot to reality. It is okay to get a bit deliberate on the long shots.

[Cory Mattson]

Kelly - stay on track - offer what you can. Your critique of my comments are pure ignorance. I have some close friends who feel the same way you do - but they are wrong and could not know what I see.

I actually shoot pretty good with my eyes closed but that is another discussion.

For you other guys I will state plainly I do not see the arrow - that is my method and I am an instinctive shooter - and not a slpit vison shooter either.

and not saying one method is better than another - I think all guys should sort this out for themselves. Trying to define away anothers method is not productive.

I have the animals and recovery rates to back it up. DONE.

I have so much confidence when I hunt I never second guess. I would not change for anything. Like broadheads if it works every time I don't switch.

[RC]

I have more than once shot a broadhead in a log while stumpshooting. I would not have shot it instead of my judo had I"noticed" it was a broadhead. Point is I don`t look at my arrow or anything when I shoot other than my spot. I changed a year ago to three under and still do not see the arrow on purpose. Maybe with out thinking I don`t know but I can shoot a candle out in the dark when I can`t see my hand in front of my face.RC

[typical2]

I started shooting a longbow a year ago and i thought i was shooting instictively.  Until i shot a broadhead.  When drawing back everything looked different and i couldn't shoot well.  I have since changed and am now like RC.  I don't know what i on the end of the arrow when shooting.

Eric

[3Bears]

I'm not much on giving advice but from my 40 years of shooting traditional my consistency has always been not so great.So I went to a Rod Jenkins class and I learned a whole new style of shooting and I wish I would have learned this style a lot earlier in my life. It is very accurate and  mostly consistent. 30 yards or less suppers on. Just food for thought.

[TSP]

My theory on instinctive shooting (yup, I'm one of those guys, too) is a little different than most, since although I believe the instinctive shooter is "aware" of the arrow he/she doesn't need to  actually "look" at it.  What they "see", in their mind, is a relation between the spot to hit and the imaginary line of the shaft created during the draw.  The arrow point (a two-dimensional "sight pin") is not used and is basically irrelevant.  The line of the shaft (a three-dimensional "flight path") is created by the mind during the draw as the shooter subconciously sees/feels the shaft (and draw elbow) 'lining up' relative to the spot.  The "aim" is set subconciously by the mind visualizing (not by the eye looking directly at) the arrow as the draw is completed and alignment with the spot is deemed (subconciously) to be correct.  The shot then happens.  

I.e., the shooter does not need or even want to look at the arrow, at all, but he/she is aware of where it is in space relative to the spot.  I think it's more like shooting a basketball than throwing a baseball.  See and focus on the spot on the rim, execute learned shooting form subconciously, subconciously feel the arc needed based on subconcious calculation of distance (all the while visually locked on the rim spot and line...no fair looking at your arms or hands!), feel the ball launch from your hands towards the mark, follow through...and wait for the swish.  

Your subconcious trusts that all this learned work will make the ball go where you are looking.  With practice and lots of repetition, it actually does (amazing!!!...not really).  Shots get harder as you move away from the basket (or target)...spots become smaller, there's less margin for error, more variables to affect the outcome.  

It's a simple, subconcious calculation of what to do to hit something based on form and feel.  You do pretty much the same thing when walking, eating, breathing, etc.  "Instinctive"...done without concious calculation of the components of effort needed to reach the desired conclusion.

Or something like that.....              :D

[Cory Mattson]

Tony great post - I do think too many bowhunters struggle with the "terms" and "definitions" as much as struggle with the actual making the shot. This "aware" is fundamental - I do not see the arrow but obviously I am aware of where it is - in fact I know exactly where  it is and where it is going - I use Terrys allignment clock and dvd demo a lot when we teach shooters and this is very strong structure that a lot of sloppy "instinctive" shooters are not used to.
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