Training???

[Hunter74]

I just last week got a new to me Silvertip. At my draw length I'm pulling 68-69# with it. I'm a pretty stout guy but am still pretty new to traditional. Basically I can get about 20-25 good shots in with it before I start to tire and my form starts to deteriorate. My question is how can I train or what would be a good way to train to build strength and endurance and shoot longer and smoother?

[moebow]

Hunter74,

Congrats on your new Silvertip, they are great bows.

BUT!!!!!  That is a very heavy bow for most experienced, accomplished shooters.  The way to "train" or build up strength is to start with a 30# bow and work up in 5# increments.  I don't care how "stout" you are, starting with a near 70# is a recipe for failure.

Every coach I know would have you start with a 30# bow (if not 20#) and work up slowly.  There are NO weight training exercises or routines that will help you with this.  Learning how to use your body in ways you never thought of to get proper back tension and bone on bone support takes a slow work up to get to the high  weights.

Where in Wisconsin are you?  Can you find someone to help out where you live?

I really don't mean to rain on your parade but since you say your are "still pretty new to traditional" I'm trying to help you succeed AND take as much potential injury out of the program as possible.

Arne

[SAVIOUR68]

Hunter74,Moebow is point on with his advice as always .Start low learn proper form and everything else will follow.Build the foundation of ur form/ shot in ur muscle memory. Best wishes and welcome to.the gang.

[Hunter74]

Moebow, I always appreciate your advice. Now I probly should have got a little more detailed. I have a 45# @ 28" recurve and a 53# @ 28" recurve that I have been shooting since April. I shoot them both with ease and I use the 45# the most to get solid foundation and form down. I definately use back-tension, I learned how to execute my shot years ago using any release aid with back-tension. Now with my heavier Silvertip I see that I do need to work on strength some. More than anything I need to make my hand and fingers stronger. I can draw the bow to full draw without much difficulty but after 20 or so shots it gets tough to hold onto the string. For the last week I've been doing sort of drop sets as a weight lifter would call it. I warm up with my light bow and make sure I get everything feeling right. Then I go to my heavy bow and shoot it till my form starts to deteriorate. Then I drop to my medium weight bow and shoot till I get tired. At the end I take several more blank bale shots focusing entirely on form and everything feeling right with my lightest bow. Is this a good routine to build "shooting strength" or is there more or better things I can do?

[JP Lucas]

Moebow is spot on.

Having a solid form that you are happy with is very important. Start with low weight realy get the back tension down. Thats so important. Then try and get some weight.

Once you feel that a shot was not perfect, when shooting this heavy lbs, thats a good time to call it a day. Two perfect shots are better than two dozen not so good shots.

To get stronger, what helped me is to draw with your weak side. If you shoot right then draw a bow left handed. A different and lighter bow might be needed to do this. And try to set a goal, like for the first time try and hold it for 20 seconds and so on. Same for your strong side.

Also when shooting, shoot about 10 shots and those ten shots hold at your anchor for 10 seconds and follow through with the shot. But make the shots perfect on the form aspect.
I will train sometimes with a little heavier bow but 45, 50 lbs will take down any animal if the shot is perfect. Just keep that in mind.  

Just keep workin on it and you will do just fine.

JP

[Mongo]

PM sent Josh.

[Hunter74]

Another thing I'm interested in is how to avoid any problems down the road. Mainly my shoulders. I'm only 27 and I don't have any problems with anything now but I want to keep it that way. I do notice the day after a long session of shooting that I have muscle soreness in my draw shoulder. I also have it in my back muscles so I imagine its just part of shooting but I want to make sure I learn the right way right now so it never becomes anymore than some muscle soreness. So are there any exercises or things a guy can do to keep his shoulders strong and avoid any injuries down the road?

[Rossco7002]

Soreness in the muscles is a good thing - just like some soreness after a session in the gym. Just let your body recover before shooting again. I also like your 'drop set' idea for warming up to the heavy bow.

warning signs that your overdoing it (in my experience) - soreness in joints, tendons or obvious injury.

[moebow]

Hunter74,

Your routine with the other bows sounds decent.  Your first post made it sound like this was your first bow.  Still, be careful when moving up in weight.45# to 53# is a pretty large jump and 53# to 68# is really large.  Be careful to develop both sides evenly.  This will entail working (pulling) the  bow left handed too.

At 27 I too, could do anything (or thought I could).  You are right to be concerned about doing it right to avoid injury down the road.  This is really a function of a correct draw sequence that is using your bones to "lever" the bow to full draw and minimizing the use of muscle.  But, when using the bones in this manner, the challenge is to be sure that your joints are in the correct position and move correctly.  If for example, you allow your bow shoulder to rise (even a little) you are flirting with a potential impingement (crushing the cartilage of the socket between bones).  Another potential area is the string arm elbow.  Especially at higher weights, it is easy to use more and more biceps to draw with and that will eventually strain the tendons running through the elbow.  The last area to watch carefully is the rotator cuff.  If the bow's weight is not set up in our form correctly, the rotator cuff can take strains it was never designed to take.

Many common injuries in archery are injuries that occur because of way too much repeated movement.  Same thing over and over.  Long practice sessions are not as effective as shorter ones that emphasize correct movement.

Muscle soreness is normal and tells you that your are in an area that will allow the muscles to rebuild and come back stronger (after an appropriate rest.)  It also tells you the next morning if you were using the correct muscles.  Did you ache where you expected?

I believe you will find that most archery coaches are not big fans of weight training routines, and that many archers are not "pumped up" due to weight training.  Archery is a form sport, not a strength sport.

Good form can and does reduce injury!!!  If you can get to a coach -- DO SO!  If you can learn correctly and apply that you will have a lifetime of shooting ahead.  Us humans are designed to move and anytime we move there is always a potential for injury BUT correct movement can and does reduce the danger.

Arne

[Hunter74]

Moebow,
Could you explain more what you mean by using your bones to "lever" the bow back to full draw?

I use a rotational type draw like you demonstrate but I keep my elbow more parallel to the ground and my draw arm comes around my body in circular motion. My bow arm is like a post, I engage my back muscles on the bow side to hold my arm rigid. My arm is straight but elbow is not locked, much like if I was leaning against a wall. Once at full draw my elbow is straight back and I have just a little room left to expand my draw side back muscles till the shot breaks. Does this all sound correct to you?

[moebow]

Keeping your elbow level is just fine!  I teach the higher to lower draw simply because it helps folks "discover" the use of the back more easily in my opinion.  Just a technique, nothing more.

Bone on bone... Easier to demonstrate than to describe.  You might think of it this way.  If you are doing push ups (just the old standard style) try stopping half way up.  How long can you hold that position before you fatigue or start to shake?  Now, if you push all the way up and straighten your arms so your weight is supported on the arm bones, how long can you hold?  That is one demonstration of the advantage of bone on bone.

In the archery shot, if you have your bow arm straight (but not locked -- I'm a BIG advocate of the "not locked" elbow!) AND your shoulders (both of them) in line with your bow arm, you have created a "bone" structure that is "bridged" between the bow grip and the string hand.  Many feel a lessening of the weight of the bow when this happens because you are not holding bow weight with the muscles but "bridging" it on bone.  The same is true during the draw.  IF you can think about "levering" your bones you actually can reduce the muscle strain by using muscle to move the bones and not just to pull the bow.

I grant that there is a "fine" distinction between the two, but once you "get it" it is actually easier to draw the bow and more solid.  This, once learned, is the technique that allows a person to draw a heavier bow more comfortably.

Again, trying to put this into words is much more difficult than a one on one session where the movements and concepts are easier to convey.

I'll also mention, that if you think of your bones as a radius in a circle (especially the upper string arm (humerus) and string shoulder) where the shoulder end of the bone is the center of the circle, The bone swings, creating a circle at the elbow end. And, "circle" = "rotational" draw.

See if this helps a little.

Arne

[Hunter74]

Moebow,
I'm pretty sure I understand what you are describing. Your upper body from your draw side elbow to your bow side wrist should be one in line and "locked" structure. I would think of it as your draw side forearm and hand is just a strap or hook that's connected to your elbow. Your draw side elbow should be straight back and "locked" in line with your shoulders through the use of your back muscles. Your bow side arm should be out with bones in line and "locked" in place through the use of your back muscles. Once in this "locked" position you expand your back muscles till the string slips free.

[moebow]

You've basically got it.  The only change to your description I would make is that your drawing elbow is NOT in line with your shoulders or bow arm.  Your drawing shoulder bow shoulder and bow arm are one line.  Your arrow string hand and forearm are another with the drawing elbow at the end of this line.  Then the humerus forms the third leg of the triangle connecting your draw shoulder and your draw elbow.  The draw elbow is in line with the arrow.

It is impossible to have your drawing elbow in line with your shoulders and bow arm and still have room to sue the bow.

Arne