Arrow velocity and maximum range for instinctive shooting

[Retnuh Wob]

I have been shooting trad for about 1 year now and have had fun experimenting with different bows, equipment, arrow weights, arrow speeds etc.. I am now getting to the point where I want to limit myself to two or three good bows from 40# to 50#. I also want to keep my arrow speeds with different setups in a relatively narrow range. My purpose is to keep my trajectories with various setups consistant so I can refine my judgement for instinctive shooting at reasonable ranges, and achieve my maximum accuracy potential.

So my question to all of the experience archers is this: What do you believe is the maximum pratical range for different arrow velocities, say 200 fps, 180 fps, 160 fps and 140 fps. The longest distance I have been able to practice at is 30 yds. With a little more work I feel I could be competent enough to shoot at deer sized game at that range. I know there will probably be a wide range of oppinions. But, I would like to see what everyones take is on the question.

I appreciate the Help!

[moebow]

Retnuh Wob = Bow Hunter     :D    :D    :D     ,

You'll get more and better answers on the Pow Wow.  This really isn't a shooting FORM question.

Arne

[Terry Green]

The closer you get all your set ups the same the better shot you will be with any given one of them.

All my set ups are close....180-185.  Not that there is any 'better' speed I suppose...just what I get with my 'go to' set ups...and strive to achieve with my set ups that are a bit heavier and a bit lighter in draw weight.

Also....there's no problem in asking about aiming questions on this forum....after all aiming is part of 'the act of shooting'...all sorts of topics here about gapping. string walking, etc....so no reason we shouldn't allow instinctive questions.

[ironmike]

i've got about a dozen bows ranging from 60-72#@28, i pull about 30,all my bows use the same arrows,my 60's are recurves and my 70's are longbows.just keep pumping those arrows at your targets, and you'll know what's best..wisdom is in the moment,so if you know you have the shot,the question is moot.keep the weight up around 9 or ten grains per inch,don't worry about speed.repeatable accuracy and a thumping arrow makes meat.

[beendare]

I have seen plenty of guys with good hunting accuracy out to about 30 yds shooting pure instinctive. That seems to be the magic number, probably since most practice at those ranges. I would guess that guys with consistent accuracy out at 40 yds + is less than 2%. I know a few good target gap shooters that are lights out to 60yds.

Ret, I'm in a similar state of shooting as yourself...so no expert...but some comments that have helped me.

Terrys strategy of same weight [matching trajectories] is really the only way to go- lighter form bow and heavier hunting bow- same trajectory.

The longer your point on will equal larger "Gap" and makes it tougher for your brain to lock on to the trajectory. So closer to your eye makes it easier, IMO.

Good form is crucial.

Bright fletching, down feather indicators, lighted noks- anything that helps you see the arrow in flight will help lock in the arrows trajectory.

Do more shooting at longer ranges.

 I really liked Jay Kidwells book, "Instinctive archery insights"


...

[NBK]

I was thinking a similar thought recently in that some of our better known hunters with great shooting skills, (Howard hill, Paul Schafer, Byron ferguson, etc.) shot heavy draw weights which assumes flatter trajectories.  Rick welch also likes lighter arrows creating a flatter trajectory.
Terry's advice on keeping velocities the same for different setups is one of those "duh!" moments for me and a new winter project.  I should have thought of that sooner.  Thanks.

[jackdaw]

You can play the game in a very similar fashion if arow speeds stay in the 175-185 fps. ranges with all your bows.(or 10 fps increments).  Very little correction to adjust to the 10fps arrow cast differential. That being said...I don't know a whole lot of archer buddies who shoot much past the 20-22 yard mark...even though they regularly practice to 40 and sometimes 50 yards.Very difficult to focus on a spot at that range.....greater chance for a wounded animal. Always the archers judgement call....

[Snome]

Remember that Howard Hill shot an elk from pretty far off. I think it was like 185 yards or something ridiculous. If you can pull those off more power to you. I don't think I'll ever be able to do something like that.

[Trumpkin the Dwarf]

Your bow will have killing power far beyond what you can accurately shoot.

I don't set a specific maximum range for myself because I know when a shot feels right and when it doesn't. Sometimes that range will be very short. Other times 35 yards is easy.

The more you shoot at unknown distances(3D courses are great) the more comfortable you will be, and the better you will know your own limitations. Just remember the game changes when it is a live animal.

[reddogge]

I shoot bows from 30# to 50# and since I'm shooting different weight arrows for each the arrows fly in a similar trajectory and speeds. Of course I'm hunting with 45-50#. It's good to practice 30 yards and over, even out to 50 yards because it give you confidence and it's just fun but I will tell you, any deer past 20-25 yards will seem a mile away in the woods under real hunting conditions. A few years ago I passed on a trophy buck at 30+ yards because the chances of wounding at that range was too great. I chose to let him walk.

[TSP]

It's been said a million times that bowHUNTING is a close-range sport.  Despite today's common armchair rhetoric about how easy it is to learn long-range shooting with traditional bows and arrows, that old adage is true.  When you draw down on a game animal it's no longer backyard practice.  It's serious business.  

They say that a deer in today's ecomony (I'll use that for an example) is worth about $200 as meat prices go.  The 'taking a life' part, if you regard killing game as something more than just making meat, adds considerable 'value' to that amount.  Lots of bowhunters might say they feel confident on that 30 yard deer, but would they be confident enough to lay $200 on the table, their's to lose if they miss or wound?  I'm guessing not.

Unless you're figuratively willing to accept a significant consequence...to YOU...at the moment of truth, the shot is probably too far/too risky to take.  That's where respect for the animal and for your own scruples come in, because in truth that's the only true personal consequence to slicing an animal through the guts.  Yes, close shots are not guaranteed a favorable outcome either, but that's not really the point.  The point is, at say 14 yards most archers don't have any doubts about the distance as it subconciously affects their confidence that it WON'T affect the outcome...that they won't wound.  Can most ethical bowHUNTERS, particularly instinctive shooters, honestly say that about 30 yards?  Again, backyard practice is not bowHUNTING.

I'd look at it this way.  With real life there are personal consequences to everything we decide.  Why not regard the killing of a game animal in the same way?  There are two mindsets that tend to influence what choices people make...what's in it for me, and what bad happens to me if I do it.  If we made decisons about hunting like we do about life (I guess some might call it being more 'ethically practical' about our shot choices) the sport would be much better off.  And there would probably be alot fewer lost/wounded critters in the woods.

[Friend]

Typical arrow design spec'd out at 500 grains            
            
Data reflects vertical drop            
            
Yardage……….140 FPS……….160 FPS……….180 FPS……….200 FPS
….20………………-37……………….-29………………..-22………………..-18
….30………………-84……………….-65………………..-52………………..-42
….40…………….-155……………..-119……………….-93………………..-75

Many…many variables and scenarios to consider, as well as, scrutinizing the archer’s own responsibility and accountability before executing a 30 yard shot at a whitetail. The quarries we pursue deserve nothing short of our best.

[joe skipp]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong...but I'll give my thoughts on how I interpret this question.

First...if Bow "A" shoots 150 fps then from practicing diligently, I know exactly where I should aim from 15-20 yds.

Bow "B" shoots 195 fps...again, from using long range practice out to 40 yds, I should know exactly where to aim from 25-40 yds. With this faster bow, my point of aim should not be that great from 10-20 yds.

Bow "A" will not shoot with the same trajectory as bow "B" from 25 yds out. Unless you decide to shoot extremely light arrows. Shooting hunting weight arrows, 8-10 gpp, there's a big difference.

Hope I read this right and my answer makes sense. If not...please let me know where I missed the boat.

[jerseyboy]

I shoot pure instinctive and can't relate to the aiming part. I have bows that are #34 and bows that are#60. i just kind of look at target, stare it down even, never take my eyes off the spot raise bow arm, draw, anchor and let er rip

[Retnuh Wob]

I appreciate all of the responses. I should probably define what I am trying to accomplish a little clearer.

I want to settle into a fairly narrow arrow velocity range(about a 5 fps band). I believe  doing so will help develop my shooting skills to the highest possible level through consistency. I want to choose that band to optimise my max range while not sacrificing more arrow mass and penetratetion than necessary.  

To use Joe's example, 195 fps would likely give a flat enough trajectory shoot out beyond 40 yds. but what good would that do if you were only accurate enough to ethically shoot to 25 yds. A 600 gr. to 700 gr. arrow @ 150 fps would have great penetration with the right broad head on most animals I'ld ever be likely to shoot at. But, that set up would start getting hard to hit with even at 25 yds. My question was aimed at seeing what others experience has been.

Actually, I am leaning towards adopting what Terry stated was his velocity range as it seems a good balance and I have tried it recently and have been hitting well with it out to my current 30 yd. backyard range limit.

There have been a number of posts that have touched ethical hunting ranges. I especially appreciate these. Hunting ethics are extrememly important not only individually but to hunting community in general.

I am relatively new to trad archery. However, I have been persuing edible animals with various projectile launching devises for over 50 years. I hunted a Blacktail buck this last fall that was likely a Pope and Young animal.  I saw him on 5 different occasions each time at under 20 yds. and never pulled a string on him because I never had a shot I was sure I could make. I hate wounding animals that cannot be recovered and limit my shots at game to those that I have a high probablility of successfully making.
 

There is one point I would like to make regarding ethics. Each person has to be responsible for setting their own limits. Some individuals put more work in to developing higher levels of shooting skill. Others might have more oportunity to be in the woods and can hone their woodsmanship to a higher degree or hunt under circumstances where they can get closer to game. Each person hase to choose based on their own situation and environment.

To whatever degree I can reach in my shooting ability I will use that level as a basis for choosing which shoots I feel I can ethically take, tempered by field conditions of course.

[Terry Green]

Accuracy....no matter the speed, comes with practice.  Perfect Practice.....and lots of it for longer distances.    

[Retnuh Wob]

Agreed! And practice I do. Since I started Trad about a year ago I shoot almost every day, even if it's only a couple of shots inside. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times in the last year I went more than two days without shooting. This Trad thing gets in your blood.    :D