Thinking too much vs Snap shooting...questions?

[shag08]

Hey folks. I went to the Tennessee Classic Saturday (its a great event...if you ever get the chance to go...GO!) and picked up masters of the barebow volumes 3 and 4. They are both very informative. I've been looking for a good instructional video to help my form and I read that these are the best.

My only other instruction has been G. Fred Asbell's first book on instinctive shooting.

I read it and everything seemed to come together for me. I was shooting 3 inch groups at 20 yards. More than good enough to suit my purposes.

I watched the videos and started thinking all about form and all that they spoke of....my shooting went straight to hell for some reason. Well I shot all over the target for close to an hour and just gave up....I was walking back to the house and thought "ah, the hell with it," and nocked an arrow with my back to the target at 15 yards.

I wheeled around and snap shot....just turned around, saw the spot, touched anchor, let it go....and hit the bullseye.

I thought, "Well that was just luck."

I proceeded to walk to 25 yards and just for craps and ha-ha's put another arrow on the string......turned around....picked my spot......came to anchor....let her fly!

I busted my first arrow all to pieces!

Am I just trying too much?

Thinking too hard?

Not trying hard enough?

I want to do that all the time. Why can I only do it in situations such as that?

Thanks alot for reading folks.

[Manitoba Stickflinger]

I think any time you try a different method you will be less accurate than shooting the way that you are used to. You have to give new techniques a chance to pay off rather than just a day or two.

For me, learning to "snap shoot", from one of the only books out there in the late 80's, was great at the time but probably the worst thing I could have ever done in the long run. I have programmed myself to not hold at anchor and now struggle to get to a full draw that I'm happy with. The "Masters" videos are a compilation of theories that can aid in developing a technique that doesn't condition you to have problems, but rather have consistency without anxiety about shooting.

The answer to your questions..."Yes".. you are trying too hard and thinking too hard. On the other hand you may not be trying hard enough to resolve issues that with lead to success in the long run. We all love this silly sport so much and strive for perfection that we become our own worst enemy. Shoot the style that gives you the most confidence...hone it and perfect it...and correct it when you begin to stray or see problems creeping in.

Best of luck...Ryan

[Austin Brown]

I went through something similar, dropping bow weight and working on perfecting my form.  But instead of lasting an hour, it lasted over a year and I almost quit archery and hunting altogether.  Went back to heavier bows and snapping and I am better than ever.

I'm not saying that this will happen to you or that you shouldn't explore better form.  But just that not everyone will do well with incorporating a lot of mechanical form thoughts on their shooting.  I've played golf and pool at very competitive levels and seen the same thing there.   In golf,pool, and archery there are a myriad of ways to get the job done.  While I wouldn't teach my style to someone, it works well for me.

[moebow]

Ya, shag,

IF you are serious about improving, you need to accept that your accuracy will go down for a while.  One of the most frustrating things for coaches and instructors is seeing a comment that "I tried that and it just doesn't work for me."  Only to find out that the "try" was a few arrows last night.  You MUST give the "new" a fair chance to develop.

It is an accepted fact that it takes at least 21 FULL practice sessions before a habit, new form change, etc. can take effect.  For many folks that's at LEAST 2 months if not more.

Also, shooting at a "bull's eye" during the form change will/can destroy any progress made.  You MUST be dedicated and accept that the improvement will come -- but NOT immediately -- IT TAKES TIME!!!!

Arne

[McDave]

What you're saying is true, Shag: you can't shoot well if you're thinking about things during the shot.  The reason is, thinking about things blocks your ability to feel things, and you need to feel what your body is doing to shoot well (or do any other hand/eye coordination sport well).

The rub is, as others have stated, you can't learn to do new things without first thinking about them. Trying to do things by thinking about each movement is like tightening a fitting with a pipe wrench.  Once you learn the basic movements, becoming aware of what your body is doing during the shot without thinking about it is more like playing a musical instrument.

[Terry Green]

maybe you're shooting exactly the way you are supposed to shoot???

the way you were cut out to shoot....if it ain't broke......

[Terry Green]

3 inch groups at 20 yards.... again what is to change?....  

[NBK]

I think your situation is probably pretty common.  Most of us starting out are self taught and fall in love with flinging arrows.  We aren't overly concerned with "how does my form look" or "is my elbow in line", and we have a blast doing it.  Then as we get just good enough to think we know something we start critiquing ourselves and comparing ourselves and shooting to others methods and styles.  We tinker and experiment until we realize that proper form is sacrosanct and not beholden to "style".  At this point one rediscovers which shooting method works best for themselves and accepts it.  In your case I say "dance with the girl you brought to the party!" i.e. snap shoot.

[shag08]

Hey guys. Thanks alot for all of your responses and recommendations. I can really see both sides of my situation here and I take to heart everybody's thoughts and points of view.

I think Mike has really hit the nail on the head for the place that I find myself in right now. It seems like I'm just ok enough to give myself a hard time about my form and really try to do the best that can possibly be done...but I screw myself over in the process.

Terry is right as rain too. I'm tickled to death with 3 in groups at 20 yards. Especially when I factor in my background and learning curve. I have shot trad for about four years but never seriously...and for four years I wasn't any good. I bought a Black Widow on Jan. 1st this year and I have shot every day....for at least one hour...most days, two hours.

I think I'm gonna just try to slow down my shot process a little. Take my time a little more....and think alot less. When it feels right I'll shoot. When it doesn't I'll let down.

All of you guys are experts and I value everybody's help. Thanks so much to everybody. I've learned alot from everything that everybody has said. Thanks so much guys.

[Terry Green]

Nice attitude....gotta love that!!!

Proper alignment is more important than style or aiming method IMO.  Proper alignment is form, and can be taken to various shooting positions.

Howard Hill proved that Snap Shooting was deadly (among many other pioneers) both on targets and game.  Don't shoot like Howard did, ....ya might just kill something.    

He also shot split vision early on, and once he turned from targets to mostly hunting, he admitted that many of his shots on game were instinctive.

[NBK]

One more thing shag,
Whenever you're thinking about "how should I shoot"?  Leave the target and go stump shooting for a couple of days in the woods taking typical hunting type shots.  Trust me, you will answer that question unequivocally and quickly!

[ChrisM]

I am right there with ya Shag.  I read about target panic and the need to hold for longer and all that.  Well I gave it a good try for almost a year now.  Never got any good and had trouble making shots.  In fact I would not go hunting sometimes because I was afraid I would have to shoot at an animal.  This last week I just went to: Bear a hole, push with the bow hand, pull straight back and release when anchor is hit and pull through it.  Right back on target again.  No flying bow arm, no fliers, no arrow being pulled off.  I just never could get comfy, and was nervous as all get out.  I agree with Terry we have to shoot the way WE are made to shoot.

[Terry Green]

O'l HH proved it......He was a snap shooter on both targets AND animals.  Can't argue with his success at either venue.

Yep, you have to figure out what STYLE is best for you....although I do believe proper alignment, ie form, will get you there faster no matter your style.

[Terry Green]

Most of the guys I hunt with are successful snap shooters....some are semi-snappers, and a few I swear are saying a prayer they are holding so long....

So YES>>>>YESSSS...you have to find what works for you....just like all those variations on the Bare Bow vids have

[BigDBowHunter]

was working on my snap shooting today, it takes a while to get consistent with it. Just like anything, takes a lot of practice

[Lamplighter]

FWIW, I have only been trad shooting for 3 years. Took me 1.5 years to become consistent.

3 things finally brought me to a repeatable comfortable form :

An experienced friend with some good back muscle tips and straight line tips

Rod Jenkins on Masters of BB 3

An finally another friend who won the Howard Hill tournament in Alabama several years back.
His tip was the final cap on my getting consistent.

I am the one who says the prayer while at draw. I am a straight up no cant 5 second hold shooter.

But, once the local tournament gets crowded and there's alot of talking and noise, it is over. I will miss entirely easy targets and have to go look for my arrow.

Back at home on my 3d range, or at the local range with one person and a quiet range, like where you can actually hear the woodpeckers, squirrels barking, etc, and I am on target.

I am a hunter. I just don't like crowds & noise. So, pay attention to mental distractions too.

[TSP]

Hunting archery is a simple matter of proper timimg (and alignment, as Terry mentioned) honed with hunting-type practice and gear.  Target archery is a more complicated matter of measuring and assessing your mechanics to the point of...well, target shooting...using gear and methods better fitted to the task...lighter bow and arrow weights, longer holds, longer draws, etc.  Today's methods/vidoes are much more in step with the latter style, which in some ways is sad.  One does not have to shoot like an Olympian to shoot well or hunt successfully, even if they say otherwise in videos and on the TV/internet.

You can learn both styles and have the complete experience I suppose, but when it comes to being the 'best you can be' at one or the other it's as Hill said, 'Make up your mind what you want to do...hunt or target shoot'.  There's a difference.

[njloco]

Put some good old rock and roll or country music on loud and start shooting, if you were here i'd invite you to shoot with the crew on a 3-D shoot and that would cure you for good, that is as far as the noise and annoyance goes, of coarse you might not ever be the same again but you'll be able to shoot at your best under all circumstances.

[twistedlim]

G Fred Asbell talks about drawing and release in his Video.  I watched it today and realized something I forgot.  He said for some reason the faster we draw back the faster the release. Likewise the slower you draw the more time you will have at or near full draw.  Really common sense but it helps me.  Another tip I forgot is before each practice session (and treestand hunt for me) take a couple of smooth practice draws concentrating on the point you want to hit as you draw to anchor. I just tried it and it does make a difference.

[Scott Barr]

All of you know more than me.  I read a lot about what ya all say.  My experience is that I was pretty good after about six months of regular practice a couple of years ago after giving up compound bows. Then I read and read and watched videos, and tried a new method it seems almost every day. It messed me up.  I lost all rythm. ....getting worse and more inconsistent rather than better.

Spent more than a year working through it.  

I'm glad I stuck with it though and continued to listen, observe, read and learn from others.  Although it took me a while to work through it, my own hard earned form represents knowledge from those that know so much more than me.  

Seems to me that the accurate snap shooters have had to put in the time to get to their level.  So to you and to me I say,   keep it up.

Scott