Theoretical release question ....

[buckeye_hunter]

The following is all based in theory and I was wondering what you all thought.

I have heard it said that if an archer is truly in control of his shot, then he chooses which arrows to release AFTER he has drawn the bow. For example, the archer pulls back the bow, reaches full draw, and then decides whether or not they are ready to send it down range. This is not to be confused with choosing not to draw at all on an animal or target.

If this is true, then is the release of an arrow truly on a subconscious level? Just a thought that ran through my mind......

     

-Charlie

P.S. If this has to be moved to Shooters Form Forum I get it, but I thought since it was just a theoretical question it might be okay here.

[McDave]

I believe what you're saying is consistent with a subconscious release, at least for those of us who draw and hold.  I've been taught, using Rick Welch's method of shooting, to draw and hold for two seconds (more or less).  During the two second hold, we let the bow stabilize and check our alignment, etc.  At the end of the two seconds, we give our subconscious mind permission to "fire when ready" and the shot actually goes off a short, but undefined, time after that.

During the two second hold, we either correct what we can, or abort the shot (or more likely, we kid ourselves that everything is go, whether it actually is or not, because we don't want to abort the shot, but you said theory, right?).

I think this method helps prevent the most common kind of target panic, because permission is not granted to initiate the shot until after the two second hold.  So (theoretically, of course) you're not even thinking about releasing the shot until after the two second hold.  Instead, you're thinking about holding on target, alignment, relaxing your string hand and bow hand, etc.

I suppose (theoretically, of course) it would be possible to go through the same decision process before committing to the shot for a snap shooter, and abort the shot if things don't feel right, but those decisions would necessarily have to be made prior to reaching full draw, because my understanding of snap shooting is that the arrow is released the instant you come to anchor, without a perceptible hold.

[t4tutor]

Can the concept "holding" be interpreted as the part of the expansion phase? I am asking this because I have been working on Moebow technique and noticed that if I stop at full draw (i.e. discontinue rotating my draw elbow), BT will be lost and my arrow will go sideways. Thanks

[moebow]

t4,  "HOLDING"  is another of those archery words that is not a good one -- like anchor.  Both words imply a stopping point and they are not (stopping points)!

Holding is the most important "target" of the draw, loading, transfer steps but the motion doesn't stop, it just gets slower and slower (becomes internal).  At holding, you begin the expansion that is part of the release.  This area is the "hard" part of the system and a way to think about it is, "I'm at holding so now to the expand & release."  The rearward motion of the shoulder is VERY small (can't be seen) but you can and should feel it continuing.

Arne

[t4tutor]

Arne, that is a detailed and easy to understand explanation as you always make. Thank you very much.

Tomas

[RedShaft]

Hmm. I just realized(off topic) that don't continually draw through without pause but have a defined pause then try to pull through. I need to work on that. Never realized till now I was making that mistake. Thanks

I think it's more a very relaxed release. I think only A true subconscious release can happen when using a back tension mechanical release a that is not part of traditional archery . My 2 cents

[moebow]

Redshaft,

I tend to agree with your observation of the BT mechanical release.  I will suggest though that the "finger release" can be very near to that.  What I mean is that IF the parameters for the release have been set up correctly, then the release will "happen" and NOT be a result of a "shoot now" command from the brain.

Arne

[McDave]

I have to disagree, in part, with Arne's statement above that "holding" is not a good archery term.  I believe he is correct, as far as the dynamic release is concerned, and he describes that release better than I could.

However, holding is a perfectly good term to describe the dead, or static release as taught by Rick Welch.  In his style of archery, your draw comes to an absolute stop at full draw.  During that stop, you are not perceiving any continued movement of the bow arm, however small.  Instead, you have a balanced pulling backwards that offsets the pull of the string forwards.  The shot is released subconsciously with the hand still.

One of the problems people have when they attempt to learn Rick's method is trying to blend the two styles. They have heard so often than one must pull "through" the shot that they pause, as described by Redshaft above, and then attempt to pull through.  This is the worst of both worlds!  I know because I was doing it myself until my second lesson with Rick, when he finally got it through my thick head that you DON'T PULL THROUGH THE SHOT with his method.  It was a hard lesson for me to learn, because even though he was telling me that in plain English, I couldn't conceive of not pulling through the shot.  When I finally understood that, my shooting improved dramatically.

His method really doesn't need any justification. It either works better for you, as it does for him, or it doesn't.  But people do try to find the logic in things, and his logic is that he wants the foundation of the shot to be rock solid at full draw, the same as it would be if you were shooting a rifle off-hand, with all movement minimized.  The pull through release requires movement, however small.  He also wants the shot to go off at the optimal time for the shot, and not when other events dictate the shot must go off.  With the pull through release, you have to coordinate the release of the arrow with your pull; not so with the dead release.

I'm not advocating the dead release for anyone.  I am saying that it is a mistake to confuse the two.

[RedShaft]

Woops

[RedShaft]

Originally posted by RedShaft:
 

Originally posted by moebow:
Redshaft,

I tend to agree with your observation of the BT mechanical release.  I will suggest though that the "finger release" can be very near to that.  What I mean is that IF the parameters for the release have been set up correctly, then the release will "happen" and NOT be a result of a "shoot now" command from the brain.

Arne

I agree totally. I completely understand what your saying. I'm in the same.

And on the same note, having a continuous pull through shot will make a cleaner unconscious release because well be concentrating on aiming and pulling through and it will just hapen. Also would allow for better full expansion and alignment.  [/b]

[ChiefStingingArrow]

In your guy's opinion what did Howard Hill use? Did he Pull through or did he stop?

[McDave]

From watching his videos, it looks to me like he pulled through. I don't think he even slowed down his draw much at full draw, let alone stopped.

[beaunaro]

Here's my two cents. First, let me say, I'm not an expert, so this is just what works for me. I only mention it because it might help you.
I'm not trying to convert anyone's thinking.
I think Arne's methods work for him and will work for those who practice them. No doubt, he is an excellent instructor and fully understands his methods.
I'm a Rick Welch student and advocate. What he said to me many times, still rings clear in my head and makes so much logical sense to me:
With regard to pulling thru the shot, snap shooting, or other ways to shoot other than his dead release:
"Is this the way that you shoot your compound with mechanical release?"
My answer was "No, I come to anchor, get still, hold while concentrating on hitting a small spot onthe target, remaining motionless for a short time."
Then he asked "Why then, would you want to shoot a traditional bow while introducing any motion during the release?" "Isn't introducing motion apt to destroy accuracy?"

When I think about this, it makes so much sense, that I cannot conceive how others can shoot any other way, but they do, and it works for them.

That's what makes it so much fun...doing it your way and trying to figure out how to repeat it accurately.

I'm thinking without instructors like Arne, Rick, and many others, we would have a really tough time trying to repeat all the steps accurately.

Thanks to all of them for trying to explain it to us.
Irv Eichorst
 www.truesouthadventures.com

[Bladepeek]

I need to watch another video of Rick Welches release before I would agree or disagree with any of the above.

It does seem to me, though, if you are pulling on the string (and you have to be pulling, or it would be moving forward) when the tension is suddenly released, whether with a mechanical release or finger release, your string elbow is going to move rearward. Not an exaggerated amount unless that is part of your shooting style because the back muscles are already nearly fully contracted, but your string hand will still move at release. If I am pulling on the string and someone cuts the string (no, please don't), that string hand is going to move back. Of course the bow would be destroyed but the release would certainly be clean    

Does part of the problem result from our mental picture of the terms "pulling" and "holding"? I think in both of the release methods (static and dynamic) there must be rearward tension on the sting to keep it from moving forward. Seems like that tension could be called pulling or holding as long as we agree that it (the tension) is present.

[McDave]

If you want an example of a dead release where the archer's hand doesn't seem to move much at all after the shot, check out Ron LeClare's section on MBB 1.  In most videos of Rick Welch, his hand seems to bounce around a lot after the shot goes off, which he attributes to shooting a fairly heavy weight bow.  However, if you watch his string arm, his elbow doesn't move much.

If you check out Rod Jenkin's section in MBB 3, he talks about the different stages of drawing an arrow: excessive pulling to anchor, balanced pulling at anchor, and expansion to completion of the shot.  I believe everything is the same for both dead release and dynamic release through balanced pulling at anchor.

For a dynamic release, pulling during the expansion phase results in some rearward movement of the arrow.  There will necessarily have to be some rearward movement of the arrow during the expansion phase, as physically the pull on the arrow is greater than the pull exerted during the balanced pulling stage, when there is no conscious movement of the arrow at all.  The release happens during the expansion phase, and the additional pull during this phase results in the vigorous rearward movement of the string hand that is evident with a dynamic release.

For those who use a dead release, there is no expansion phase.  The arrow is released during the balanced pulling phase.  There may be some movement of the string hand on release, as a result of recoil, although, in the case of Ron LeClair and some others I have observed, the movement may be almost imperceptible.

I think the important thing to note is that the dead release is not just a slower version of the dynamic release, and there is no conscious "pulling through" the shot.  The problem is, most people, including me, have been grilled on pulling through the shot to the extent that we assume there are only two possible outcomes: either pull through the shot or collapse.  Holding at full draw with balanced pulling and releasing without an expansion phase is a learned skill, just like the dynamic release is a learned skill.  You're not going to ruin your shot, permanently anyway, by trying something different.  If it doesn't work better for you, you can always go back to what you were doing before.  I know there are people who have tried Rick's method, don't like it, and go back to the dynamic release.  There are others who like it and never look back.  Both of those outcomes are fine; the outcome that is not so fine is thinking that the pull through method must be a part of Rick's style when it isn't, because then you really haven't tried his style at all.

[moebow]

I think that the "pull through" is misunderstood.  The string hand DOES stop BUT the shoulder and arm continue to move PERPENDICULAR to the arrow line.  IF the string hand continues to move back on the face, you are using arm and not back.

Think of an engine where the crank shaft at bottom dead center is moving perpendicular to the piston bore line.  The piston is stopped but the crank is moving perpendicular to the cylinder.

See if you can see the stopped string hand, but a continued perpendicular pull of the shoulder and string arm in this video.  

Arne

[McDave]

Yes, I can see what you're indicating in your video.  However, I think in many cases, the shoulder and arm movement you refer to does result in a small movement of the arrow.  For example, people who use a clicker come to full draw, with balanced pulling, and then pull the final 1/8 - 1/4" needed to activate the clicker using the movement you describe.  Joel Turner teaches the same thing in his new video, showing closeups of students pulling the final 1/8 - 1/4" to reach the tip of the nose, with the arrow being released as soon as the feather touches the tip of the student's nose.

Using the dead release as taught by Rick Welch, there should neither be any movement of the arrow or perpendicular movement of the shoulder and arm at full draw.  There is balanced pulling and an effort to halt all movement of any kind until the arrow is released.  This is a very significant part of his method, and he works very hard with students to get them to "unlearn" the movement you describe.

I hope you realize I'm not criticizing your method.  I think you have very good form, and are certainly more in the mainstream than Rick is.  It's just that if people want to try Rick's method, they have to understand what it is, and what it isn't.

[moebow]

Dave    :D  

I think as usual, we are  more in agreement than disagreement.  In the NTS, the activation of the clicker is string side shoulder movement that presses the bow side shoulder out and NOT pulling farther with the string side.

There are LOTS of ways to do it, my responses are NTS based and really NOT meant to challenge other (totally) acceptable ways of shooting.  I fully recognize that many folks shoot very well with other techniques.  I just offer my version and folks can use, accept or discard as they see fit.

Arne

[Bladepeek]

McDave, I'm going to have to work with this a bit.

I don't believe there is any rearward movement of my arrow once I reach anchor. My hand does jump rearward upon release, though, and unless I hold against a solid anchor, pulling tight against it, I can't picture my hand not moving rearward when the pressure of the string is suddenly no longer there.

Like I said, I need to study someone who has a dead release and watch it more closely than I have before.

It's just a bit too close to deer season to seriously try something new right now.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Pojman]

For a while now I have been shooting another type of bow(with wheels)using fingers. I draw split fingers and then drop my index after I stop and anchor. When I am ready to release the arrow, I just relax the other two finger. There is no hand movement. Now that I have started up again with traditional bows, I find myself doing the same thing, except for the stop. I do not look at the arrow. I just look at where I want the arrow to go. I concentrate on that spot while I pull back the arrow. As soon as my finger touches the corner of my mouth, the hand stops and the fingers relax. My right eye continues to look at the target while my left eye tracks the arrow.  Depending on the shot, I will change between split fingers and three fingers under. I will also change whether the index or middle finger touches the corner of my mouth.

Don