Drawing elbow question/ the rotational draw?

[RedShaft]

I'm not a target archer,(bowhunter) so I start my draw with bow arm pointed at the target and draw straight back with what I think is a higher elbow. No I read in trad bow magazine about shoulder problems and high or low drawing elbow. Now I can't remember whitch it was. But last night I tried some thing different where I had my bow shoulder a little lower with bow point at target and started my draw lower like I was drawling toward my upper chest throte area. I felt so much stronger and could feel myself using my back muscles better. Idk if this is wrong or could be a good thin but it felt good and I felt stronger. I still was in good alignment after reaching full draw and all was the  same as normal. But doing this getting to anchor..And  I said i really felt my back muscles.
Now for some of you trying to figure the back muscles thing out should give it a try.
But wait to hear what the more knowledgeable shooters say. Thanks

[RedShaft]

I have one thing to add, I watch couple videos of myself and when I shoot how I normally do my drawing elbow is at or above eye level when I draw.

[JMR]

I say if it feels better give it a try, but I am far from an expert. Good luck

[Jagdmann]

I'm curious about the community input on this question also....

[moebow]

I haven't responded to this thread because it looks like Redshaft is making a statement, not asking a question.  Not real sure that I'm able to understand the point or technique though. My opinion is pretty well spelled out in my videos:   http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1

Arne

[RedShaft]

i watched your video and you too seem to have a high drawing arm. i have found it difficult to "find" my back. but drawing lower i have come to get a better feel of my back muscle engage in the draw. using Arnes method i dont feel my back until i am almost at full extension. where is drawing with a lower elbow i can fell my back muscle from the moment i start my draw to finish. and i feel more stronger too. as in, its easier to draw. thoughts?

[jjwaldman]

 

I would like to hear the answer to this.  It seems to be the case that when I pull with a lower elbow I feel the back tension more (try it right now and you will see).  

That doesn't mean that it is a great idea.

What do you think Arne?  I think the challenge may be that with a low elbow you can't come to a good shot conclusion because you can't get your elbow around with a lower elbow.  

Note:  Don't listen to me, I have no idea what I am talking about!

[moebow]

Red & jj,

Guess I'm having a very "obtuse" moment here.  Not sure what you mean by "a high drawing arm."  I START the draw with my bow hand AND string hand at or slightly above my nose.  That gives me room to draw in a SLIGHTLY downward motion to a point where my string hand is just BELOW my anchor point.  Then I LIFT the string forearm and hand(by rotating the upper arm) to anchor.  

That motion places my string forearm on the force draw line.  The result is that the string elbow is in line with the arrow line on the horizontal as viewed from the back and the elbow ABOVE the arrow line viewed in the vertical.

The Force Draw line is a line from  the center of pressure of the bow grip in the bow hand to the arrow nock to the string elbow.  It does NOT run on the arrow line.

I might be able to answer better if you explain what you mean by "high drawing arm."

There is nothing wrong with a lower draw but many times you will find that the tension you are getting is more on (or at) the base of your neck than down near the lower tips of your shoulder blades.

Arne

[jjwaldman]

Arne, maybe elbow should have been the word.  

Also, why do you draw below and then come up to anchor?  Why not go straight to anchor?

Personal preference?

[SAVIOUR68]

Its all personal preference on a high or low draw elbow and at its resting place at full draw/alignment, I believe that proper alignment is more critical to a stable shoot. Some people shoot a low anchor and some shoot a high anchor. Olympic archers shoot a lower anchor due to using a sight and longer distance shooting and most 3D shooters use a 3under anchor that is higher to get there arrow under the eye, there is no right or wrong its what ever works the best for you.

[moebow]

jj,  I learned that (draw below anchor then lift to anchor) when I learned the NTS (rotational draw).  It helps to get the lower trapezius and rhomboids engaged as far down in the back as possible.

In the NTS, it is called "drawing to the loading position" and it allows a deep (low) back engagement that can be set; then the lift to anchor keeps the back set and allows the references to be set the same each time.

Again, in the system I use, the string elbow should be on or inside the arrow line in the horizontal and ABOVE the arrow line in the vertical.  I know that many "trad" shooters strive for the elbow in line with the arrow both vertically AND horizontally, but that breaks the straight line of the force vector coming from the bow.  Lining up on that vector is a LITTLE more efficient than not being on  it.

Arne

[ausjim]

Originally posted by moebow:
Again, in the system I use, the string elbow should be on or inside the arrow line in the horizontal

Can I just ask for a clarification here (probably required due to my ignorance rather than your explanation). When you say 'inside the arrow line' do you mean it should come past the arrow or stop before it passes it?

Cheers,

Jim

[SAVIOUR68]

ausjim I believe what Moe is saying is to have the draw arm elbow inline with the arrow or SLIGHTLY past IN towards the back which will allow a more stable platform for the shot and also relieve some muscle tension due to proper aligmnent. If the draw elbow is outside of the line this will lead to a collapse most of the time and usually after fatigue sets in.

[moebow]

ausjim,

Savior's got it right.  Ideally the elbow will be inside (body side)the arrow line.  In line is good, inside is a little better BUT don't over do it either!

Arne

[crk]

Hi all,

moebow, can a clicker be used with the rotational draw?

Charley

[moebow]

Charley,

Absolutely!!  This system is what is taught by USA Archery to our top recurve (Olympic) competitors.  To be sure, not all use it -- but it in it's purest form it is definitely for clicker use.

Obviously, SOME of what I try to teach is MODIFIED a little for our side of face anchor and somewhat different equipment. A clicker is activated through the "expansion" step (or should be in the NTS) and the alignments I've been talking about here (and elsewhere) contribute to allowing proper expansion and clicker activation.

Arne

[ausjim]

Cheers Arne and Saviour, I thought that's what you meant, I just wanted to be sure.

Jim