Aiming vs. Instinct

[moebow]

You are missing the point!  I never said you don't look through the sight!!  I tried to say, you visually focus ON the pace to be hit and THEN your sight is blurry in your secondary vision.  OF COURSE you are looking through the sight but your clear focus is ON the pace to be hit and the pins are blurry.

We've probably derailed this thread enough.  The original question was about instinctive aiming I believe, not sights.

Arne

[TomatoLane]

Originally posted by moebow:
You are missing the point!  I never said you don't look through the sight!!  I tried to say, you visually focus ON the pace to be hit and THEN your sight is blurry in your secondary vision.  OF COURSE you are looking through the sight but your clear focus is ON the pace to be hit and the pins are blurry.

We've probably derailed this thread enough.  The original question was about instinctive aiming I believe, not sights.

Arne

Yes sorry for derailing.

[TomatoLane]

Originally posted by DaveV:
This pic might explain what words can't
     

If I tried to add words, the "point of aim" is the spot on the target that lines up with the arrow point(in the pic it's at 6 o'clock below the target). The "gap" is the relative distance between that point and the center of the bullseye.

Good image.

Here is another good one

   


   

[ishoot4thrills]

That "split vision" definition in the above post is exactly what I do on stationary targets.

[LongStick64]

What I can't seem to grasp from the pictures above, how does an instinctive shoot not see the bow or arrow, it's in their vision, I find it impossible to believe that anyone can block out what is right in front of them. Point a finger at something in the distance and focus on that spot, you still see your finger no matter how hard you try to not see it.

[tracker12]

You will see your finger but in that scenario the finger should be a blur.

[Gentle-Savage]

it's an acquired skill longstick. it's kind of the opposite from crossing your eyes. you see two of something even though there's only one, and with the instinctive skill i'm referring to you don't see something  that is there.

[LongStick64]

Ok I agree it's a blur but you are conscious that it is there. So I believe in your subconscious you gap.

[TomatoLane]

It is called tunnel vision.

Your vision comes to a tunnel,where your peripheral vision becomes dark,and all you see is a lit up target.

The Zone....If you will,the racing line .


Add.
Thats why if you practice shooting at night with just a light shinning, on just the target,that is what you should see.

You can train yourself to see that tunnel,with the imaginary line,strait to the target.

[ChuckC]

You see it.   it is kinda like being married for 40 years. .  the wife is yelling, but you don't "hear it"

OK  not quite.

In instinctive. .  again, that is only a name, it is not instinct,  you aim, but differently.  

After doing it over and over, your mind knows that to hit a certain target requires a certain sight picture.  

Unlike the various aiming techniques, you are not consciously aiming, but rest assured, you see it and your mind is aiming it.  You just aren't conscious that you are doing all of that.

We do a lot of things like that.  Put a glass down on the table (BEFORE you drink all the beer out of it and make it tougher), how did you know how to do that, to use certain muscles, in certain ways.

Have you ever picked up a "full" gallon of milk and find out it was almost empty. .  as you about throw it through the ceiling.  

Why, because you practiced it and knew it takes a certain amount of muscle and movement to pick up a full gallon. But it got fooled.  Shoot a gun and flinch at the misfire.... (unfortunately) you practiced that too.

Sure. .  you see it.  But it is not what you are focusing on.

ChuckC

[TomatoLane]

Also remember Your bow set up, and your anchor point,will also,semi dictate how you shoot your bow.

Most all world cup recurve bow shooters,anchor point, puts the string in front of the eye,so they can aim/line everything up(lots and lots of reference points)sights/peep holes, string nocks,marks on the back of the bow.ect ect.

And instinctive shooting, the shooter for the most part, uses just the target,and natural eye hand coordination,and muscle memory as reference points.  

Instinctive shooters,bow hand,and anchor point are the most important things,that creates your,weapons,front sight(bow hand) and the rear sight(anchor point).

If those 2 things are solid you will hit your target,but may not hit the bulls eye.

That takes focus!, burn a hole in your target.

[Firstlight]

I am in in the process of moving away from instinctive only shooting  (seeing arrow, etc in periphery vision, unconscious) after 15 yrs of shooting this way.

At least for a while that is!

I have been practicing the past few months "split vision" like in Byrons book.  I am much more precise now. It did take a number of weeks to be able to "see" the out of focus arrow tip.

And, after doing it for a while Im moving back to being more instinctive.  BUT, anytime I want I can choose to use split vision as a reference.

Man, if my arrows are off I just make sure my form is good and shoot split vision and the arrows tighten up.

Once I'm shooting well for the day I don't need to "reference" the out of focus arrow tip (split vision).

This has worked so well I may try some longer arrows and attempt  gapping for the first time, only to unlearn it again.  

 Like Byron talks about in his book, "Become the Arrow".

Also, I think it's generally accepted that only "burning a hole" is the easiest way to Target Panic, which is a breakdown in form.

And no, I'm not trying to start any debate with my TP comment...

[TomatoLane]

Originally posted by Firstlight:
I am in in the process of moving away from instinctive only shooting  (seeing arrow, etc in periphery vision, unconscious) after 15 yrs of shooting this way.

At least for a while that is!

I have been practicing the past few months "split vision" like in Byrons book.  I am much more precise now. It did take a number of weeks to be able to "see" the out of focus arrow tip.

And, after doing it for a while Im moving back to being more instinctive.  BUT, anytime I want I can choose to use split vision as a reference.

Man, if my arrows are off I just make sure my form is good and shoot split vision and the arrows tighten up.

Once I'm shooting well for the day I don't need to "reference" the out of focus arrow tip (split vision).

This has worked so well I may try some longer arrows and attempt  gapping for the first time, only to unlearn it again.  

 Like Byron talks about in his book, "Become the Arrow".

Also, I think it's generally accepted that only "burning a hole" is the easiest way to Target Panic, which is a breakdown in form.

And no, I'm not trying to start any debate with my TP comment...

Yeah, not everyone can learn to throw strikes,thats why they are first basemen and not pitchers  

[TomatoLane]

Originally posted by jlenzo:
Hi,
I am new to trad shooting, so I'm hoping that some of you who have been shooting since the last ice age can help out.
Aiming, i.e., sighting down the arrow like a shotgun, versus instinctive shooting...pros and cons?
I can do both almost equally well, but which is better to learn for a newbie? I'm not a great shot, but ever since I started hunting about 12 years ago, animals always seem to die if I want them dead. I think my instincts are good, but maybe I'm training myself totally wrong too...thoughts?

The bottom line is,nothing works the same for everyone.So learn as many ways/styles,from whom ever you can.

Try them all I say.
You will find a style of your own, that will resemble,all of ours,It may even be a hybrid,of a bunch of techniques.

Just be consistent,with your form. And shoot alot of arrows each way. And choose the one that,your mind seems to clique with.

Just remember, you are no more responsible,for the micro structure of your brain,and how it interacts,with the natural world, than you are responsible, for your own height.  

[Terry Green]

Some of my best shots I've were made with me not even remembering drawing the bow...I was so immersed in the shot window opening and then the exact spot I wanted to hit.  All I remember is the arrow entering the animal exactly where I wanted it to.

I know many other successful hunters that have said the same.  But again, you have to find what works for you and your hunting style and the game you hunt.

I'm not much for static targets faces, but much better at stumping,...i'e'...pine cones, mushrooms, small grass clumps, leaves, spiders in webs.  But that's what work for me.

Find your own way.  Use what works for you and leave the rest on the table.  That's what I did, and got several tips from old timers along the way earlier in my journey that helped me find what worked for me.

Don't rule out 'Olympic' style, but don't rule out your own abilities to find your on style for actual hunting.  Sometimes it comes in handy to 'manufacture' a shot.

There is no broad brush or my way is the highway.  Best of luck on your quest to be the most accurate you can be in the field of play.

   

[Firstlight]

I like that we all have a passion for archery.

As I attempt to be the best instinctive archer I can be, the past few months I have been trying a different style of shooting / aiming.

In a few more months I may be trying something different.

Having had bad TP and also having hit a level of archery where I wasn't seeing a lot of improvement I decided to try something different.  Kind  of a test...

I prefer to just "burn a hole" but am working on form and trying out Howard Hill / Byron F's  style of shooting (splint vision.)  

And I'm seeing improvement.

And for those who like to read a little, this is what I'm working on...

A quote from Howard Hill:

There is, however, one fault with the pure instinctive style
of shooting and that is, that after shooting and missing with the
first arrow, you have nothing tangible to compare with for correcting your second shot. To explain further, a man throwing
a stone ·or shooting a slingshot will only do it accurately after
many, many hours of practise and being able to FEEL his shot.
Now the Instinctive archer draws, concentrates on the object
to be shot, intensely, then releases. Now if he shoots high as
I said before he will continue to shoot high unless he has prac-.
tised a great deal in order to get that FEEL, in order to ad just
a slight bit on his elevation. Instinctive Archery was used by
Chief Compton with great success and twO of his most apt
pupils, Art Young and Dr. Saxton Pope used this method in
killing some of the biggest game on the American continent.
Advocates of Instinctive archery as in any other spOrt must devote
a lot of hours to practice if they expect to become at all proficient.
InstinCtive shooting cannot be mastered to its full limits
without the proper fundamentals. These can be found in almost
any book on archery. I want

First we come up to the target. Our object is to hit the center.
Say we have a pie-plate up against a soft bank. You take your
stance and come to full draw, concentrate on the center of the
pie-plate and release. This is Instinctive shooting and as I said
before you can hit and kill with this method but supposing the
first shot is high by 12 inches. How can you correct this small
variance? Here is one way. Before coming ro full draw we
will have to make a few decisions. Where is the center of the
pie-plate in relation ro my indirect imaginary point. Come ro
full draw and again concentrate on the center of the pie-plate.
Is that all you see? NO. Indirectly and secondarily you see the
tip of your arrow. For that matter you see directly a lot of your
arrow projecting from under your eyes but it is indirect or better
to say indistinct.   Keep concentration on the pie-plate but be
conscious of your indirect view of the arrow  Now, before releasing,
you pick an imaginary point where the tip of the arrow is to be,
then release. If you shoot high you know your imaginary point
was that much too high.

[smoke1953]

When I started my journey in 2007 I decided to only look at the target and that's all I have done. I have not related the arrow to a different spot as Ferguson does. Over time the brain, what's left of it, made the adjustments. For me it works. Doing it differently in a hunting situation would be impossible for me. Often you here that you are always subconsciously using the arrow, for some that may be true but I don't psyco analyze what might be happening, I look at what I want to hit and sometimes I hit it.

[Firstlight]

"smoke" I think you made an important distinction.  For example, my goal, like your's is to, "only look at the target."  That is all I have ever done until recently.

When reading Ferguson, etc my understanding with split vision or gapping for that matter is it becomes subconscious, over time.

For example, the other day I spent a full hour at my point on (about 45 yards) and just put the out of focus arrow on the bull.

My groups became pretty tight after a bit.  Then I went to roving at targets and stumps at hunting distance and my shooting was much much tighter.   But For the hunting shots I was mostly just looking at the spot, not aware of the arrow.  Sometimes I did pause in my hold / anchor to see the "alignment" of arrow to target (windage only, not vertical).

I had some interesting observations and my shooting was improved, that day.

But if shooting poorly it's easy to do a form check and then choose to see the out of focus arrow point as a part of a form check.

Anyways, I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll bow out on this one.

PS:  I by no means am trying to say my way is the right way.  Just sharing a little of my path as I try and become a better archer.  Thus my trying something new after reading up more on H. Hill, etc...  

I sometimes don't say things well on the net.  I like what Terry wrote a couple of post above mine.

Take care.

[Stumpkiller]

Originally posted by LongStick64:
What I can't seem to grasp from the pictures above, how does an instinctive shoot not see the bow or arrow, it's in their vision, I find it impossible to believe that anyone can block out what is right in front of them. Point a finger at something in the distance and focus on that spot, you still see your finger no matter how hard you try to not see it.

That's a sticking point for me as well.  You never hear of an instinctive shooter dry firing a bow because they didn't notice the arrow was missing . . . so they must be aware it is there.      

A fine line between conscious, sub-conscious, unconcious and consciously ignored.

I thik a lot of us blend methods.

[Gentle-Savage]

think of "not seeing the arrow" similar to spacing out, if you've ever done that. some call it zoning out. where you're either focusing onsomething in your mind, or day dreaming, to where someone could wave their hand in front of your face and you wouldn't respond until they shout your name. or if you've ever been in a car accident and you or them "didn't see it". blocking out the arrow is relatively easy when you put your imagination and focus to work in painting a future reality in your mind of your arrow hitting the mark, that all else fades away. it's one of the  reasons Archery, for me, is a form of mediation.

so to wrap this up - think of peter pan in Hook, with Robin Williams. or a mentally ill patient who sees things that are not there for you or me. our minds create our realities. just because it seems impossible for you, does not mean it is impossible for someone else.     cheers