Throw the ball

[thump]

Michael:That's exactly it.    

[woodchucker]

This is what "instinctive" shooting, is all about!!!

Many laugh at me, but IMHO, "bare-shafting" is for the birds!!! If a bird had no feathers, it couldn't fly!!!! Tuning??? Alittle playing with your nock point, or brace height, to get good arrow flight or quiet things down, is just common sense... Many folks go completely BONKERS trying to "tune" their bows!!!

If you can TRUELY shoot instinctively... Nothing else will matter.  

[thump]

Woodchucker: you hit the nail on the head with that one. O' I think I crossed that line a few times.

[mgf]

Unfortunately, I'm not a very good golfer. I tried shooting a few hoops on my grandson's low net in his drive way and didn't do very well. I haven't tried to fire a ball from deep left field since I was a kid but I'm not sure we would ever find the ball if I tried it today.

I don't really measure my gaps or think about them in terms of yards and inches but I would describe myself as a gap or point of aim shooter since I do use the arrow to aim.

I keep my shots at game under 25 yards and, more often under 20. Here's the thing. My "gap" doesn't change much over that distance so I don't need to think in terms of yards either. On a deer sized target, it's either close enough or it isn't. ok, maybe I think in terms of it's on the far side of close enough where I'm point on or on the close side where I have a few inches of gap but it doesn't make that much difference.

I can still shoot a group on my target bag in the dark and I don't even illuminate the target.

Let me make a suggestion. Objectively measure your accuracy and precision over a significant number of arrows and see what the numbers really say.

I don't have anything against "instinctive aiming". It's just that I've never personally seen anybody who claims to be an instinctive shooter who really shoots very well where it's actually measured. We all get a lucky shot here and there...maybe even several lucky shots in a row. Measure 20 or 50 or 100 shots in a row and count them all.

Howard Hill had his "split vision" thing. John Shultz mentions "whatever aiming reference you use" or something like that. Byron Ferguson uses the arrow, right?

We know that all the top 3-d and spot shooters use some conscious aiming method...and most (or many) are successful hunters.

How many of you have sawed the scope or sights off of your rifles? Why not just shoot it "instinctively"?

Maybe I'm wrong but I think a target is a target. If you can shoot well, you should be able to hit any target you select. Yet so many "instinctive" shooters won't shoot paper or compete. Doing it just once would go a long way in proving a point.

I admit to being a skeptic at heart but it would really be impressive to see one of you go out and beat the pants off of Dewayne Martin...indoors or on a 3-d course.

A stick bow is a simple device. However, simple devices are often more complicated to actually use well than complex devices are.

I can't beat Dewayne either so I'll just finish by saying that the jury is still out and I would be more than interested in seeing some evidence...but a picture of one group or shot is not what I would call evidence.

[mgf]

Bow tuning...as a hunter, whether or not I can group broadhead tipped arrows where I point them says it all.

I start with bare shafts only because it minimizes the amount of expensive broadheads I have to shoot at expensive broadhead targets. If bare shafts land where I intend them to, the broadheads usually do also. If the arrow matches the bow and your shooting is clean, you really don't need fletching when shooting target points. Fletching is there to correct mistakes and mistakes (in tune or shooting) is what we're trying to see by shooting bare shafts.

When shooting fletched arrows tipped with target points, you can shoot almost any arrow off of almost any bow. In order to prove a point in one of these discussion on another forum, I shot some pretty tidy groups using .400 spine arrows off of a 15 (fifteen) pound bow. What do you think would have happened if I mounted some broadheads on those arrows?

Here's the thing, tuning alone will not get you good groups where there are no good groups to be had. If shooting is sloppy, it can appear to make little difference, especially, over a small number of arrows.

[Bowwild]

Yep, it starts with form. Form is enhanced with well-tuned equipment, and all this comes together when the mind is disciplined by practice, confidence, and commitment to the shot.

[mgf]

I took a drive yesterday and stopped at the local archery shop/indoor range and the state WMA.

I saw a lot of compound shooters and a surprising number of crossbow shooters (hunters).

I've also shot at the indoor range when the weather is real nasty and gathered an audience and heard the comments when I manage to put a few in the 5 spot.

Maybe you don't care...and I'm not sure I do except that we have contingent that would like to see accuracy testing required for "traditional" hunters. The image that so many hunters have of stick bows is that you can't hit anything with them...and that's exactly what they see from the stick bow shooters that they come across.

Go to your club or local shop and tell me that the great majority of stick bow shooters could hit the broad side of the barn from inside the barn. They can't.

I remember when I first started shooting a recurve. I shot it like I had my compound (I shot that without sights). I remember well dressed recurve and longbow shooters telling me that I was doing it wrong. They said I should shoot like this...and they hunched over, snap shot and NEVER hit anything! I was hitting ok.

Some of them shot fairly heavy bows but I remember being amazed at how SLOW their arrows flew. All these years later I realize that, even though some of them were big guys, they probably weren't drawing 22 inches before they released the arrow.

I also remember the old guy (he seemed old to me at the time) shooting a girly colored bow vertical (no cant) and stacking them in the bull at 40 yards.

I had to ask him how he was doing it. He was shooting 40 pounds and using the arrow to aim.

He wasn't a hunter but I would not have wanted to be a deer on the day he decided to take up hunting.

Those other guys would have been no danger.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The description of "shooting instinctive" can be misinterpreted. i believe that with a lot of time invested and practice you "Learn to shoot instinctively" .

It's letting your subconscious mind make the adjustment without thinking about it, and learning to trust your instincts.... you don't think about it, you just do it.

I honestly don't think this type of archery comes natural for everyone either. Mostly because they think about it too much and do not spend enough time perfecting a repeatable form.

The shooting at night thing with a target that is lit up, you are still subconsciously using a gap, and lining up your arrow in the sight window whether you realize it or not.

We have a yearly night shoot at the Bow hunters of Washington rendezvous that i've shot for 4 consecutive years now & it's proven to me that without any light at all to see your bow sight window or arrow, you have nothing to line up on at all, and have no idea how far you are shooting. They use glow sticks on the targets and the targets run from 15 yards to 45 yards.

I've shot side by side with some damn good archers   that only hit 5 or six targets out of 15.

The funny thing about it is... if it's a moon lit night. you do much better in the open, than you do in the thick timber where you can't see the bow in your hands at all..... you guys say what you want about being totally instinctive. If its pitch black & all you can see is a glow stick, a small christmas light, or a candle. You are still using the sight window to line up your bow correctly, and if you truly don't know the distance..... Well it's a shot in the dark ....literally.

[woodchucker]

What most people today don't seem to realize... TRUE Instictive shooting, Is a matter of Hand/Eye cordination, controled by the brain's ability to tell the body what to do, and the body's ability to do it.

You can "gap" "point refferance" Whatever you want... It IS NOT, truely instinctive shooting. Instinctive shooting, Is simply looking at the target, draw, shoot, and hit it!!! Alot can be determined by what distances we practice at, however true instictive shooting is pure body function. Like throwing a ball!!!

Btw, To a really good, truely instinctive shooter, "Tuning" doesn't mean spit. A good instictive shooter, can pick up any bow, with any arrows, and consistantly hit a target within his "range" after nothing more than a few "practice shots! His brain accounts for where the first couple shots impact & his body compansates accordingly. This comes from YEARS of PRACTICE!!!!! ALSO, A really good INSTINCTIVE shooter, can set his bow aside for weeks, or even MONTHS at a time... The pick it up again and be right back "in there" in a few days time!!!

When I was growing up, I shot a enormous number of differant bows. Whatever I could get my hands on!!! Out of them, I shot probly thousands of arrows, basicly whatever I could find in the big box at the Dept. or Hardware store. Nothing matched,LMAO!!! But, I most always hit what I was shooting at...

After getting away from Bowhunting for several years, I met a man who became my VERY Good Friend,and is a member here on TradGang. He had a "Traditional" Archery shop in his basement. He sold me a 1967 Bear Kodiak Magnum, Shooting glove, and a 1/2 doz. cedar arrows. He put a new endlessloop string on the bow, adjusted the brace height with his fist&thumb,(fistmele,it was called,back in the day!) Set the nocking point,by eye...(no "bow square") Tied on a pair of rubber whiskers, and cut me loose!!!!!

Within a week, I was shooting 5"-6" groups at 20 yards. After a couple more weeks, I was back to buy more arrows... I also learned that shooting "tight groups" gets to be EXPENSIVE!!!!! "Shoot 1 arrow at the target. That's the 1 that counts" Is probly the best advice he's given me!!!

PRACTICE, is the ONLY thing, that will make you a truely INSTICTIVE shooter.....

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!!

[mgf]

I'm only 55 and I've only been shooting stick bows since the mid 80's. We didn't have he internet back then so I kind of wonder where this "instinctive" thing came from.

I know that one of the Wilhelm brothers shot from the hip and Aspirin Buster shoots behind the back (at very short distances) but who is shooting really well without some kind of aiming "system"?

The shooting in the dark thing...I'm mostly a gap shooter and I can usually get a few arrows inside of a pie plate or better at close range in the dark too. It's just that "good" shooting at those distances would be all those arrows almost in the same hole so what does it prove?

[mgf]

Woodchucker said..."Within a week, I was shooting 5"-6" groups at 20 yards. After a couple more weeks, I was back to buy more arrows... I also learned that shooting "tight groups" gets to be EXPENSIVE!!!!! "Shoot 1 arrow at the target. That's the 1 that counts" Is probly the best advice he's given me!!!"

So you could knock off a 280 or so on an NFA 300 round, correct?

[woodchucker]

Honestly, I don't know??? Never tried...

I do know, I have to buy a new 3D target every year, Because I shoot the snot out of it & it's DESTROYED!!! Also, My backstop has VERY few holes in it from "flyers"...

[Rick Marchand]

I found out something interesting about my own "instinctive" shooting after having put the bow down for 15yrs and recently taking it back up. When I first started shooting 25+yrs ago, I gap shot with a recurve and used sights on a compound. I eventually settled in with the recurve and got my accuracy to the point of hitting rolling oranges 4 out of 5 times at 15yds. We used to nail bottle caps at 10-15yrds and hit a soccer ball from as far as we could kick it in the field. I picked up the bow again just this summer and couldn't hit a cow in the rump with a banjo. I was lost on targets, completely missing at 25yds. This is where it gets interesting...

Just prior to being totally frustrated and giving up for good, I decided to have fun again. I set up a hanging tennis ball and swung it in front of the target. Be darned if I didn't pin it, first shot. Since then, I have been shooting at everything BUT a bullseye and my groupings are getting tighter every week. I am around 3" inside of 15yds and 6-8" at 20-25yds. I still get errant arrows because my form isn't consistent. I don't think I would do well on paper.

My point is that I almost completely lost my gap shooting technique but somehow tapped into that instinct of hitting a moving target... sup wid dat? I would have thought it would have been the opposite.

[Jerry Jeffer]

Yup.  

[mgf]

I think we've all experience shooting better on targets that are one-up or novel.

I find that shooting paper well is extremely difficult. Just looking at a blank target face drops my shooting a notch. I've tested and measured that too. LOL but I've also mentioned some of my misses on deer.

I was shooting good so I thought I'd knock off a 300 round to see how good. I hung the target and couldn't hit anything. I went back to shooting the tin can and did fine. Back to paper and did lousy.

I put the two side by side and I would shoot a lousy group of arrows at the paper and a nice group in the tin can.

The repetition is hard. Maintaining the same level of concentration and form on every shot is hard. It's hard to do all that when every single mistake is recorded in all it's ugliness.

But that's why I do it. I won't claim to be there yet but I intend to be able to hit whatever I shoot at, whenever I decide to shoot at it. Why should it matter if it's paper, a tennis ball or a deer?

Either way, it's a target. Shoot it if you can.

The mental game is the hardest part to get a handle on.

[mgf]

Rick said "I still get errant arrows because my form isn't consistent. I don't think I would do well on paper."

 
The secret to shooting good is to not make any bad shots. If you get rid of those errant shots, you'll score well on paper or anything else you shoot at.

It's exactly those errant shots that make your 6 inch 20 yard group (that would score a 270) more like a 12 inch group (that won't score much better than a 200)when you count all the shots.

It was one of my "errant shots" that missed that deer last year.

As time goes on (I guess I'm a slow learner) my errant shots are getting less errant and less frequent.

Making that happen has NOT always been fun. It's been a lot of work. It's been frustrating and even painful at times. But, I've improved and I'm having more fun now. The more I hit the spot I aim at, the more fun I have.

I know that shooting at deer will be more fun if I hit them.

[Rick Marchand]

My goal is to be able to move between instinctive(no tangible aiming method) and a form of gap/arrow/peripheral style. I enjoy the experience of nailing a target the instinctive way but as mgf said, the mental game is the hardest part. I want to be able to fall back on some sort of mechanical aiming method that doesn't rely as heavily on my mental state... lol. I am not yet at the level of hitting whatever I look at, everytime... I am hoping that will come. That said, it also makes sense to me to be able to put crosshairs on a target. I would still have to make sure everything else is in line. Guns are pretty much "perfect form", if you get my meaning. That is the challenge with a weapon that incorporates the "human variable" into the mechanism itself. Personally, I find it more rewarding to get "close" with a bow than punch bullseyes with a rifle.

[KentuckyTJ]

Good thread Michael. I to shoot instinctively and truly believe it is the best option in the moment of truth on a live moving target.

Great looking bow but agree you need to update the grip if wanted.

[T Folts]

I shot a buck Friday night and it was 100% instictive. I didnt have a chance to even think about the shot it just happened, just like a quick throw to first base but quicker. It supprised me the speed at which it all took place.

[DaveT1963]

Originally posted by hvyhitter:
I use a "darts" analogy. After many years on leagues I can hit the "tripples" just about every time. Shooting a bow is exactly the same. Muscle memory through practice.........

don't think this is an accurate comparison.....  in darts you have the exact same known distance so yes it is muscle memory through repetition....