Throw the ball

[jonsimoneau]

Many of the aiming methods seem to become "instinctive" or whatever you want to call it. In hunting situations I don't have time to use an aiming system. 20 yards and under it just becomes natural for me to stare at the spot and put the arrow there.

[kybowman]

EXACTLY!!!!

[DennyK]

Mike, you hit the nail right on the head! Nice bow & shooting.

[Diamond Paul]

Shooting instinctively works fine; that's what I do.  It does have limitations, of course.  You are limited by the ability of your onboard computer system and your form.  Just like some guys are good high school pitchers, but no better, and some guys are Cy Young winners and get paid to pitch, not all instinctive shooters will be good at it.  On the flip side, the ability to win the state indoor league or field tournament gapping doesn't always translate to success in the woods, either.  Deer don't stand at clearly marked yardages to enable you to properly gap them.  Gapping, or some form of using a "sight," so to speak, is clearly superior if you want to win tournaments; there is no dispute on that issue.  It is going to give you the most consistent accuracy in an objective test.  However, I think there is very little difference in practical field accuracy at 20 yards and in, for people who are considered good at both ways of shooting, and the instinctive method is quicker to use in the field, generally.  The biggest problem I see with instinctive shooters is that at longer ranges, they cease being able to trust the system they've chosen and subconsciously start to figure yardage and "aim," instead of trusting their computer and letting the eye trigger the shot with good form.  What happens is that they neither focus on the spot nor make a good shot, form wise, because distance fills them with doubt, and become convinced that they must never attempt anything longer than the conventional twenty or less.  If you are going to shoot instinctive, trust your computer and let the eye trigger the release; don't mix methods.  Of course, that doesn't mean that one should let it rip in the field at deer, no matter how far;  it just means that one needs to be committed and trust the method one has chosen to use.  JMO.

[joe ashton]

Totally agree. I have a friend that makes shooting so hard because he has to guess the yardage then deside where to hold the point of the arrow under the target then think about it all while at full draw.. wondering if it really is what he thinks it is...  

[Diamond Paul]

One last thought:  one reason gap (sight shooters, essentially) shooters typically do better on paper and in any objective accuracy event is that the sight (arrow) gives them something to focus on, every time.  This point of focus is consistent and repeatable.  The point of focus for an instinctive shooter is subjective and varying from shot to shot.  It takes someone with really, really strong focus to pick a concrete spot on different targets and from different yardages (farther out always being harder, because it's harder to pick a spot at distance) consistently.  I think that's why we all tend to have those days when it's so easy, when every arrow just seems to find the mark, and then we come back the next day and leave arrow holes that look like a shotgun blast.  If you've played basketball, you remember those times when the basket looked as big as a train tunnel, when you put it up from anywhere at any time and just knew it was going in.  This is a psychological phenomenon that has been studied many times:  being "in the zone."  No one has yet been able to adequately explain it or been able to bottle it for sale.  If you are an instinctive shooter, you must accept this, because this is your reality.  If you are spraying them, assuming it's not a form issue, it's probably because your mind is not focused well that day.  That's why I judge my shots by the quality of the shot itself, form-wise, and not by the result of the shot.  The only thing I can really control is the execution, because the onboard computer is subject to malfunction from time to time.  Don't let it discourage you.

[Diamond Paul]

If you are missing, the majority should be high or low, not left or right.  If you are missing left and right, look to your form, or your tuning, not to the method of shooting.

[jonsimoneau]

Lots of good points.  I love to tinker.  Always looking for ways to improve my shooting.  The thing is for me...I am primarily a whitetail hunter.  Most of my shots are 20 yards or less.  I've messed around with various aiming methods and I agree that this is the way to go on targets. One year I spent a lot of time and effort really learning how to gap shoot.  I mean I worked on it a TON and got very good at it.  Then came deer season and the first deer I wanted to shoot.  After 12 months of working on my gap method, it all went out the window when the deer came by and I ended up shooting her completely "instinctive...or whatever you want to call it".  I believe Howard Hill was the guy who said something along the lines of "decide if you want to be a target shooter or a bowhunter because they are completely different things"  At least for me, I am beginning to agree with that after 20 years of trying all sorts of things out.  I use Rick Welches method of shooting and it works well for me.  But I don't think in terms of yardage.  I pick a spot and shoot it.  However, I agree that after 20 yards this becomes very difficult.  So to rectify this...I just don't shoot at game animals past 20 yards.

[jonsimoneau]

Here is another interesting thing.  I swear this is true...at least for me.  If I put some hex heads on my arrows and go "stump shooting", I will shoot better hands down than when I stand in front of a target and pump arrows into it.  I've done it enough times to know that this is not a fluke.  So this year about 3 months before bow season I stopped shooting targets...except for up close form work.  I put hex heads on my arrows and I walk around my back yard shooting at leaves, etc.  Without a doubt I shoot better this way.  I do work on my form a lot..but when I'm out shooting and actually aiming at something...I find it is best to not think about form at this point.  It's either ingrained or it isnt.  I focus on the spot.  The more I focus the better I do.

[SAM E. STEPHENS]

Yep I look at what I want to hit draw get a good solid anchor and let her go , don't see the arrow point or sight window. I can switch up from a recurve to a longbow shoot a few arrows and I'm good to go. Sometime I don't get to shoot for weeks and my longest was months this year but was right where I left off when I pulled the bow out.Don't care a bit about shooting bullseye target , I do a lot of stump shooting and have a 3D round in my front pasture and I shoot my best one arrow at a time then on to the next shot and always at a different distance .Never had a critter stand still and let me shoot a group of arrows into its chest at XX yards. I shoot with my bow canted , kneeling , sitting , laying on my stomach with the bow inches from the ground , ect ect. So yea I say I shoot instinctive, can I pound a paper target prob not like a pro but I'm in it for hunting not a score on a target, can I put down an animal with my arrow , I think I do well in the field. I'm sure my minds eye sees what it sees during the way I shoot but I don't , I see the little spot or hair or that little crease behind that shoulder. So no I don't think about it I just do it and it works for me , heck just yesterday afternoon I shot a boar with a longbow that I just got 3 days earlier. I was stalking and just got on top of a tank dam and about 20ft down the off side was a boar walking along. No time for thinking I drew locked up on him and the arrow was gone right in his chest it all happened in seconds and in very low light while he was walking .Standing there and looking back to where he was was prob over 30yds heck I just threw the ball at him and it worked ( he only went about 60yds , I was a good half inch off on shot placement but I can live with that and in the words of B.W - I like it a lot ). Everyone has a way of doing it and I will continue to throw the ball , Carry On .......

,,,,,Sam,,,,

[mgf]

Under 20 or 25 yards (depending on how fast you're rig is) nobody has to stress too much over distance, regardless of aiming method.

Someone mentioned that any method becomes somewhat "instinctive". I guess I agree. I aim with the arrow and describe myself as a gap shooter, although, I don't always remember having done much aiming. I don't really think of the shot in terms of yards to the target and inches of gaps. I just learn what the sight picture looks like.

I used to shoot a lot of running rabbits and other fast targets with a shotgun and I used the barrel to aim. It never slowed me down.

I don't shoot groups because an animal is going let me shoot a group. I shoot groups to measure my accuracy and precision.

I don't just shoot groups at known distances. I often shoot a group into my bag target or 3-d deer from varying distances, shooting positions and angles.

The target (paper or whatever) is for catching my arrow and recording performance.

This time of year (hunting season), I pay special attention to my first shot. A shot at game is often the first shot of the day or, at least, after a long sit, and there's no warm up.

When talking typical hunting distances, I think we focus too much on aiming method (or the names we use for aiming methods).

At these close distances, you can probably do well regardless of hoe you choose to point the arrow if everything else is right.

[2bird]

1st, I am always amazed by the number of guys that brag about how accurate instinctive is/can be and then when we get on the 3D range 99% get walked on by 75-100 points plus. If you can’t shoot a foam target what makes you think you can do it when it's the real deal????

2nd, aiming with the gap system takes about a blink of an eye, I shoot swinging ball targets, running targets, aerial targets with no problem, in fact so does everyone I know that gaps.

3rd, I played the instinctive game for 3 years, I thought keeping it simple would be better. Now I look back and it seems like I was saying I needed Velcro shoes because shoe laces was just too hard.

IMO learning gaps is 10 times faster than becoming consistent at spraying and praying. I mean really when it comes down to it, wouldn't you want to consistently drill deer in the kill zone or nail the 10 ring or do you really like the "nostalgic" gut shot/5 ring? Achieving good form and proficiency is hard enough, you don't need to take the core of archery out of it just to be "trad"

IMO for every 1 archer that can truly shoot instinctive well there are probably 1,000’s that don't. I’m willing to bet that instinctive has turned away and has gotten traditional archery poo poo’ed more than anything else, fact is most people don’t like to miss just because it’s the “cool way to shoot”. Seriously how many pro anything sports players do you personally know? That’s my point!!!

[Diamond Paul]

Well, to be honest, at short ranges I don't see much difference, and I have not seen many trad shooters, no matter which aiming method they used, that I would call very accurate to begin with.  Let's be honest, there are very few really good shots with traditional bows, or fingers in general.  The best Olympic recurve shooter in the world wouldn't even get a cup of coffee in an open compound event; it's all relative.  In my opinion, lack of proper form has more to do with the lack of traditional accuracy than the aiming method does.  It's hard to shoot well and do it consistently with fingers.  I've tried gapping, I've tried 3-under; my relative lack of accuracy with a recurve has always bothered me, coming from a serious target wheelie background.  However, once I went down in bow weight and started to seriously address my shooting form, I found that I was pretty good as long as I trusted my computer and committed to the shot.  Gapping and/or three under never worked for me, and I do realize that instinctive shooting limits my accuracy potential AT DISTANCE.  However, if all I was concerned with was absolute accuracy, I wouldn't be shooting a recurve to begin with.  There is such a thing as acceptable accuracy and accepting certain limitations; I accept that I should not shoot at animals past 25 yards.  You have to remember, 2bird, that when I shot compounds I would have said the same things about you and your gapping system that you just said about shooting instinctively.  It's all relative.

[mgf]

I'm happy enough with the accuracy potential of a "traditional" bow. Shot well, it can be pretty accurate.

For me, a compound doesn't enter into it because it isn't a bow as far as I'm concerned. A bow (stick and string) is what it is. Others can do what they want but I don't have any interest in compounds.

If I had to have greater accuracy than I could get with a bow I'd grab a rifle. I do grab a rifle for some of my squirrel hunting.

But, when shooting the bow I strive for all the accuracy and precision I can get out of it.

[Diamond Paul]

I want it to be fun.  Compounds became no fun for me, mainly because I am such a perfectionist that I simply couldn't accept any miss, ever.  I'd shoot 59x indoors and stomp out disgusted because I considered myself a failure.  I was miserable.  I also made the compound business my business, and as soon as it became my job (making bow parts), I didn't care to do it for fun (if it could be called that after a point) anymore.  I got as far away from competitive archery as possible, but I went too far in the other direction, I think.  I started with too heavy a bow and followed a bunch of grip it and rip it advice.  I've moved back towards using sound form and actually working on form.  Most people consider me a good shot, but my expectations are so high that I would never say that.  I have finally relaxed enough to accept that breaking arrows every time is not going to happen with a recurve, and I've come to change my perspective on shooting to an evaluation of the process rather than the result.  If I make a good shot, and I miss the spot, I accept that, due to the lack of a "sight."  It's going to happen.  However, I will rarely miss a six inch square inside 25 yards anymore. Sometimes I will miss badly, but it's usually because I let my form slip. I can live with that.  I have come to accept that there is such a thing as accurate enough, and that I do not have to be the best in order to enjoy something.

[Terry Green]

I shoot instinctive....I see what I want to hit cause that's what I'm looking at...sometimes I don't even remember drawing the bow on my best shots.

Gap and instinctive are NOT the same,,...Nor 'gray'.

I couldn't gap my way out of a wet paper bag.

One aiming system is conscious(gap) and the other is (subconscious)...two TOTALLY DIFFERENT methods.

Some draw, anchor, aim, then release...

Some aim, draw, anchor, release....

I like to hear how others shoot, but don't like being told how I shoot by someone that has not clue how I shoot.

I shoot instinctive, and Rod Jenkins shoots the gap method, yet Rod has said on this very forum, other than our aiming methods, he and I are doing the exact same thing, he never stops pulling either, he just does the same thing I do much slower.

We are all not the same.  Some can figure the trajectory to the moon, and others can fly the rockets.....best not to switch them at lift off.  That's what makes the world go around.  No need in arguing over it.

   

Originally posted by Terry Green:
I made this shot just this year....right in front of 6 compounders....100 yards at midnight....instinctive.

Needless to say, it blew their minds, and one bowyer now has 6 bows on order because of it...I'm not even kidding...

       

.
.
.
.
Sometimes is best to listen and learn, .....that's something I've learned a long time ago...and I'm still learning.  I got my shot down years ago....by listening and applying.  Not arguing.

Someone on this very thread made fun of my fletching once, yet after years on this forum, I've never seen him with a pic of a dead animal.
.
.
.
.

[SAM E. STEPHENS]

Yea what Terry said , I was sure I knew how I shot a bow....

,,,Sam,,,

[LongStick64]

Making shooting fun and accuracy can go together very well. I don't get the vibe that some people make here that in order to be accurate I need a formal shooting session. The benefit of using traditional gear is the fact I can shoot very accurately at hunting distances without the requirement of orthodox form.

[mgf]

I agree. You don't need a "formal shooting session" to shoot accurately.

However, in order to objectively measure accuracy, some degree of formality is required. Otherwise, it's not very objective.

I'm all for having fun...stumping, shooting other interesting targets or hunting instead of standing on a line just punching holes in paper. I just think that if somebody can hit what they shoot at, they can hit paper too.

So I don't get this idea that one can hit everything except paper. It's just a target. Either you can hit it or you can't.

[Diamond Paul]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.  Most people don't like shooting paper because there is no way to rationalize that hole (those holes) in the one ring.  Paper is a harsh mistress.